Episode 4 - Giving God Your Business with Bertie Lourens

In this episode recorded on the global Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, Bertie Lourens, CEO of WastePlan shares how their company is working to divert the vast majority of customers’ waste-stream from landfills and converting it into valuable, recyclable resources. They do this by employing hundreds of local workers, caring for their families, and investing in local schools to educate the next generation of South African leaders. 

And, as Bertie shares today, stewarding God’s creation has now grown into giving God a majority ownership stake in the company. Listen in to find out how...

Episode Transcript

Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.

Jacktone: Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa primarily spotlights stories from across the continent, but we are also part of a local movement that is globally connected. In addition to new stories will mix in some of the best from around the world, so we can also learn from others. Today's episode is one that was recorded with Bertie Lourens in South Africa and we are excited to share it with you. Bertie is the CEO of WestPlan, a garbage collection company based in South Africa that is working to divert the vast majority of customers waste stream from landfills and convert it into valuable, recyclable resources. They employ hundreds of local workers, care for their families and invest in local schools to educate the next generation of South African leaders. Bertie joins us today to talk about how, stewarding God's creation let him to give God a majority ownership stake in the company. Listen in to find out how he made that happen.

Wiliam Norvell: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. It is an amazing day and we have an amazing guest, Bertie Lourens, who I just told. I will not try to mimic his accent, even though it's very difficult has joined us today. And we also have a special guest, Daryl Heald is joining us as a guest host today. Daryl, how are you today?

Daryl Heald: Hey, William. Doing well. Excited to be here today, especially to hear from our friend in South Africa.

Wiliam Norvell: I know. It's amazing. It's amazing to have you and Bertie and Daryl have known each other for a while, so it's going to be fun to tease out the story. I know our audience is going to hear something that they probably haven't heard before, and we hope the Spirit can use Bertie's story and what God, Him and his faithfulness to encourage and inspire other faith driven entrepreneurs as we're listening. So, Bertie, welcome to the show.

Bertie Lourens: Hello, William. Thank you for inviting me.

Wiliam Norvell: We're happy to have you. And as we get started, one of the things we just always love to do is just to hear a little about you, who you are, where you came from, where you grew up, how you ended up becoming a Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And you know, how you ended up sitting in that chair today with us telling the story.

Bertie Lourens: Thank you. William. Well, first of all, I'm a son of God. God Almighty, the creator of the universe and everything in it. And I'm married to a beautiful, gentle Canadian lady. And she calls South Africa home for 15 years already and four champion kids. But I was really born and raised in a small mining town in the south east of Johannesburg in the 70s. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and that was during apartheid South Africa. It was a very difficult time for South Africa and everything would be facing. Today is the legacy of apartheid. And a lot of things that we do today is still trying to fix all the wrongs of the past. So I grew up as a young teenager seeing all these wrongs, and I just thought it might be wise just to give a little bit of context about apartheid and what apartheid is and was. But it was really a governing system that denied all non white people any decent education, no voting rights and no rights for any managerial jobs. So you can understand what that means over a period of 40, 50 years of a father that needs to work and the best job he can get is in a mine as a general worker or in a factory or a construction company. And, you know, father teaching his son, this is the best that you can ever be. Just try and be the best general worker that you can ever be. And hopefully you could become the supervisor of general workers. And, you know, if you just keep perpetuating that over decades, the whole load of anger happens. A whole lot of hurt and a narrative of blaming. So that's that's the South Africa that I grew up in. And I saw how apartheid came to an end, I saw how a new era was born for South Africa. And I saw how Nelson Mandela was released from prison and how he was elected as the first democratically elected president. And I started seeing how the entire country started rallying together to try and correct the wrongs of the past. And it's been two decades and we still doing that, but it almost feels like we fail every decade. The failures are bigger than the the decade before. So that's the context where I grew up. And personally I was a very insecure teenager when I grew up because my father never told me that I had what it takes. He never told me that he loved me. So I always grew up never knowing what that real lack was that I had inside of me. But I was knew that I just do not. Feel complete. Of course, I ran to alcohol and women and I was also a very good salesman when I was in school. And I very quickly learned that I could make money. And that's when I realized that, hold on, money will maybe fill that gap, and it will make me popular among my teenage friends, which it did, of course. But luckily, I got saved very early in my 20s. It's just after the one relational failure of the next, I realized that I just do not have what it takes to keep a life together. And I surrender to Jesus at the age of 23, in the late 90s. And it was wonderful. It almost felt like it was the beginning of a healing journey for me. Shortly after that, I found a mentor that saw something in me and decided to help me to build a business because I knew I wanted to be a businessman because I could sell stuff. And I thought, if I can sell something, I can build a business. I started a business in 2004 and I am still running that same business.

Wiliam Norvell: Well, that's amazing. Thank you for walking us through that. I'm going to ask if you would, would you maybe spend a few more minutes for our listeners? I mean, I hear that I've you know, I've read a little bit about apartheid maybe, but could you maybe spend a few more minutes on what it was like growing up? Like, what did you sense in the air? What did you sense was was there and sort of from your perspective, because we have a listening audience as a white man, right, where it feels like at school. And I don't know, I don't even know the right question to ask. But I'm just really curious for I just always learn obviously from people in different world views and they grew up in different scenarios than me. And I just want to give you kind of an open mic for a couple more minutes to say just kind of what were some of those experiences like for you?

Bertie Lourens: William You know, when you become a teenager, when you hit your ten, 11, 12, 13 ages, you started asking questions. You notice things around you, you notice that there are no black kids in your school. You know, it's he kids that you play sports against are all white. You notice that when you drive out of your town, you drive into a we call them townships, but it's really shanty towns and you just see black people there and you see that the people who work in the white people gardens are black people. And you don't see black people driving cars they're driving bicycles and their clothes don't look decent. So you'd notice all these things, and then you start asking your questions. You ask your parents these questions. But why? You see, beggars at the traffic lights are only black people and not white people. And you ask them, but why? Or beggars only black people. And then they answer you. But you could see it's almost a governmental brainwashed answer that does not make sense for a 12 or 13 years old. And that's when you start realizing, but hold on, you're something wrong with the entire system. And you listen to adults the way they talk around the barbecue, around the socials about them and us and ask yourself, but we are all one. We're all one country. Why is there are [...]? You know, you ask these questions and you get answers that just do not make sense and to take it one step further. For most of these answers, there was a biblical scripture to, quote, to justify the system of apartheid and. You see black people doing the hard labor, almost like the Hebrew slaves that built the infrastructure of Egypt. I saw how the black people, a majority of South Africa was black people, were building the infrastructure for the minority. And something inside of me just said that is wrong. It just doesn't make sense. It's not sustainable. And then you start watching news. You start understanding what you hear on the news. You start hearing the conversations in the kitchen and around the dinner table with your parents. Really, as the tension started building up of the masses of South Africa, just saying, enough is enough. We want voting rights. And you start hearing those conversations, the family conversations, the fear in it. And it's a fear is a massive bloodbath revolution coming. And we just do not have answers anymore. And I saw all of that and the fear also gripped me. But then I saw the miracle of a peaceful negotiation between Nelson Mandela and the ruling President F.W. de Klerk back then. And all of a sudden, very quickly, the tension released and there was an election. All the black people were granted voting rights and the ANC, which is the party that represented them, won and there was joy and there was fear all at the same time. The wealthy whites that were able to flee, fled, packed up all the goods, and they fled. Everywhere else in the world. Because they believed that all the white people in South Africa were going to be murdered. But they believe in communities rejoiced and they sang Hallelujah. And you started hearing these messages of the fearful and the jubilant, all moralists in the same space. And something inside of me said, That's a miracle of what happened here. And it really was looking back now, it was a miracle. And very shortly after that, in the 90s, we just had a great leader in Nelson Mandela who was very verbal in his communication. He understood the fear of the white communities. And he spoke to us on public television where he made very, very bold statements of how he will protect us. And he made very bold statements to the angry majority black community in South Africa, saying, we need our brothers, our white brothers in our country to help us rebuild this country. And you just hear that propaganda coming from him and eventually you start believing this is going to turn out to be something beautiful. And that's why we named it the Rainbow Nation, because we really believed in something beautiful that was going to come out of it. And we still hold on to those hopes and those dreams because it's still beautiful, but it just sometimes feel like it's taking too long. But our timing is never the same as God's timing.

Wiliam Norvell: Amen thank you so much for it. It's such a beautiful job of taking us into some of those moments and just thank you for walking through that for our audience. And I'm interested in how did all of those experiences impact you as an entrepreneur, as someone who was studying what God wanted you to do? Right. And what was your part of that story that was being written in South Africa? Where did God find you and push you to an entrepreneurial journey?

Bertie Lourens: So I knew that I wanted to be a businessman for selfish reasons. I wanted to get rich, and that's the end of that story. So I pursued that dream of becoming rich, and I could see how this new South Africa attracted so much foreign investment. So this was truly the hope for the continent and we achieved amazing GDP growth. And I just realized I am in this ecosystem that is filled with growth and I have these skills. So and I want to be a businessman. But as I went on doing this, I noticed that the people that we employ in our business are poor, and they are, many of them, general workers that work for a very, very low salary. And that started bothering me. Now, the salary we pay is equal to what competitors in the market pay for those laborers. And when we pitch for contracts with clients, a big chunk of our service costs is labor costs. So if we overpay, then we are not competitive and we can't grow. So we were forced to pay the same salary, but we realized we can do much more. So it's just an awareness that grew over time that while we employ poor people, we have the power of influence over them more than what political leaders have and more than what the church could ever have while they work in our business, we found out that the one that receives a salary submits quite easily to the one who pays the salary. So the one who pays the salary has tremendous influence. And we, I thought, let us use that and help people learn how to better themselves so that they can build a better future for themselves. And all of that comes down to education the way you think, because if you could educate yourself, you can acquire more skills or a higher skill. You can bring it to your workplace, you can get more responsibilities. And then a higher salary I have personally worked with some of the guys in the early years. And I think once they get that, it's almost as if you've put them on a perpetual path out of poverty because he's connected the dots. You said, Oh, I see how this thing works. It's not a secret any longer. Bring more value, take more responsibilities and more money and then repeat. And that made me excited that we have this influence that we can help people out of poverty.

Wiliam Norvell: Hmm. Amen. Hey, you're sharing a gospel. You know, you're sharing the good news with people that, you know, you're holding this good news that they don't know about yet and educating them. What a beautiful reflection of the gospel and kind of where God placed you and where he put you. And and one of the unique things I've heard you talk about before that I'd love to have you share with our audiences. You know, you set out to build a business also where God would be a shareholder. And could you tell us a little about what that looks like to you, what that felt like to you as you dug into that and prayed about that? What does it look like to make God a shareholder of WastePlan?

Bertie Lourens: Will, we need to understand how that started. First of all, if you have a really good mentor and he's building a really successful business, all you need to do is just listen to him and do what he tells you. And that's what I did because I didn't know much. And what happens is if you enjoy enough success upon success and if you do not have people around you that are willing to hold up a mirror to you so you can see who you're becoming, you will become proud. And I became very proud because I enjoyed tremendous success quite quickly and in the first years of the business. And I had to define later on to myself what is pride? And pride to me is the conversation with self that says that I am better than and you can fill in the gap there with any name I'm better than. And very quickly after that, pride leads to strife or strife and striving says that I would like to be better than so-and-so. So it's a situation of measuring and saying that you're better than some, but then coveting the success of others. And that just put you on this spiral of destruction, which I didn't see. I didn't see it coming, but God did. And then luckily he rescued me there again shortly after the business. About seven years in, we started losing a tremendous amount of money, buckets full of money. And it came as such a shock because I'm a blue eyed boy, I'm so successful. What happens? Why all of a sudden all these losses, whatever I worked so hard for over seven years could be gone in a moment. And I found myself in my garage a year later in my knees, crying out to God, have mercy on me and rescue me from the situation and repenting of my pride and my arrogance and my striving and building in my own strength. And he did. He came and he rescued me. William It was very shortly after that the situation turned. It was miraculous and it turned so you could imagine early the next year I was still very raw and I was covered in the fear of God and just asking him, How do you want me to build this thing out now? I did not ever want to make the same mistakes again, and I felt God say to me, He wants me to give away. Well, what did I have? I had debt and I had an insolvent company, and I asked him if he wants that, but I heard God say the word equity to me, and that's a very interesting word. Now, the founder of a business always believes that the equity value is hundreds of billions. The balance sheet could show deep zeros that the founder always believes it's worth more. And I think God went after the very thing that could become a mammon stronghold in my life, that very thing that I believe. I'm building something of massive equity value. He said he wants that. And it was very difficult. But at the same time, I knew this thing is actually really worth a minus. So I made a deal with God. I said, Okay, God, I'll give you shares, but you got to show me how. And I asked him if he how does he feel about 30%, and he remained quiet. And then I gave him 30. And that's where we are. So from 30 very shortly after that we grew to 51 because I immediately saw, I started understanding the benefits of inviting God to a to the creator of everything and have him as a shareholder in your business. The value proposition is just so big at first you don't know it, but once I did it, I started realizing what I did. And then I realized, but hold on, let's let's give him controlling stake. And then I can sit back and watch this thing grow. And that's where we are today.

Wiliam Norvell: Hey, man, I love parts of that story that, you know, of course, because we have a God that runs after us harder than we can imagine that he rescued you. But hearing a practical, it just gets me every time when you hear of God coming to the rescue and our audience knows I cry a decent amount. So, you know, I may cry again now, but it's just a beautiful story of you submitting. And, you know, and it's not a prosperity gospel. It's a reality of the scripture, right? That like when we do turn to the Lord and when we do repent and we do give it back to him like he's there and he's there for everyone listening. Not everyone's in that spot. People have already done it. But man, if you are run to him, be with him. It's an amazing story. And, you know, and I would imagine the the way God wants to run in their business or be a shareholder may look different. But to submit that to him is the point. Right.

Bertie Lourens: William, I think, is going after the one thing that he knows will drive the biggest wedge between you and him sometime in the future. And he's going to go after that thing. And all he's really asking is just to surrender. To surrender, whatever it is, just surrender. I've got this. I know your future better than you will ever know. Just let me do this with you. And it will be so with it. That's all He is asking.

Wiliam Norvell: Amen, I'm going to turn over to Daryl after one more question here. I realized, of course, we got so excited about the wisdom you have here. I forgot to ask. You know, could you tell our audience a little bit of what WastePlan is, how many employees you have, what you guys do in South Africa? I think the name tells a little bit. I think people are already on the edge of their seat knowing a little bit. But could you tell us a little bit more just about the business and who you try to serve and how you try to care for God's world through the business?

Bertie Lourens: Yes, absolutely. Most companies have waste as part of their production or service offering, and we found that that's normally an afterthought and it's a liability. It's an ever increasing cost that somebody somewhere has to manage, but there's no specialist or an expert or dedicated person to do that. So we offer a service to companies, food companies, factories, hospitals, hotels, shopping centers. We will bring our personnel onto your site. We will segregate your waste. We will divert as much away from landfill as possible. And as we divert the waste away from landfill, we turn it from a liability into an asset. And we have enough data to show it's an appreciating assets. So we take waste was segregated at the source in separate streams. We sell those streams. The value of those streams we sell increase in value. Year on year we return the biggest part of that value back to the client. But what happens in the process is that person that did that sorting and the handling of the waste, he realizes. But I always thought of turning a wasteful item that's a liability into an asset. And in that process we generated new revenue. I earned a salary and with that comes dignity because I was part of turning value out of something with no value. And that's the beautiful part of what's happening here. We have about 2000 employees scattered over ten cities and we have about 630 clients that we service. And waste gets segregated from all these sites, moves into big processing centers, which we call recycling centers, where we do final sorting, we compress them and we sell them to the highest bidder. So we are always traders.

Daryl Heald: A lot of that waste trader. Hey, Bertie, I always just love hearing the story and and, you know, my love for South Africa. I mean, it just we've had lots of great adventure. So this is a lot of fun to be have a chance to tell more people just how God's moving in your life, in your business in the country, things like that. So I want to take us back when we first met. I think our audience is already heard Bertie is a deep thinker and I just remember where we have a mutual friend. He invited you and Leslie to this journey of generosity. Why don't we just start there? What did you think about that? And just the process that happened?

Bertie Lourens: Yes Daryl. It was mind boggling to process all the information that was presented over that weekend. Now, I saw how very, very poor people gave everything in those videos and in those discussions. And I saw how excessively wealthy people did the same. But what struck me was that the richest and the poorest were equally happy. Joy you know joy that is deeper than what a dictionary can define for you. And I think that's what hooked me that, you know, I was chasing really after satisfaction all my life. And, you know, you think that wealth will give it and then you'll meet people and they'll tell you, no, it doesn't. But that weekend I realized hold on. I think I got the secret here, this is the thing that I've been chasing after all my life. This deep satisfaction and joy comes only from a place of true generosity. And I was just trying to piece that together what would that look like for me when I leave this weekend? And I wanted to just take in as much as I possibly can while I'm there so that I have as much to work with when I would go back home on the Monday.

Daryl Heald: Thanks for sharing that. I know that's a hope and desire that all of us as entrepreneurs and investors that we understand that value proposition is more blessed to give then to receive and that we can truly live in that point of joy. So a couple of things, though, that I just when I think about Bertie, I just I love how you are walking out this journey. One of them is when we were driving home from the office to your house for a dinner one night. And up ahead of us, there are some guys at the light who were begging for money and things like that. So take the story from there. I thought that was just I forget the gentleman's name, but tell our audience just what you do. I mean, this is just like every day generosity. I just love this piece.

Bertie Lourens: Yes Daryl.

Bertie Lourens: So the South Africa that I just told you about, I just want to give you a little bit more context. The unemployment level now, sits at 38% unemployment. You know, the amount of school dropouts is ridiculous. Something like only 48% of people at start in grade one get to grade 12. So you could imagine the amount of people on the streets that do, you know, they have no job. His name is Bennett, is a begger, is bent over. He was hit by a car. He broke his back and he's never been able to get surgery. So he's bent over almost 90 degrees and he's just at the traffic light on my way home. And he's got the brightest of smiles. So it's easy to be generous toward Bennett, but surprisingly, most people are not. So after the job weekend, one of the first discussions that I think you see every time is, well, is it right to give to a beggar? It's just going to buy alcohol. And I remember that weekend someone said it, I don't know who it was. So that person said, but it's his job to give account for the money he received. It's not your job to give the account on his behalf you just gave. Your job is to give account for the money God gave you. The way you live generously with that. So I just decided, my wife and I, we decided we are going to give to every beggar. We went out and started changing money to have as much money on our car, as possible, we quickly ran out of money Daryl. So that plan didn't work. Well, we then became a little bit wiser and we broke it up into smaller denominations of money. And so that you can give less but give to more people. And Bennett is just one of the beneficiaries of that decision. And he loved seeing my car. And he hasn't seen my car for a while, especially now during COVID. You know, if I drive past him on my way to the office and he sees me, he will stop all the traffic just to get to me because he knows he's going to get something.

Daryl Heald: Well, I just love the relationship you all have. I mean, it was obviously that was I mean, that's happened dozens and dozens of time. You've talked about education and the importance of education. Let's talk about what you and Leslie is from a kingdom investing side. We think about this giving. What are you all particularly passionate about? What are you all excited about giving to? Right now?

Bertie Lourens: Daryl, it's really the education. The education stats in South Africa are alarming. It is a bomb that will explode if nothing happens. There's another stat. About 4% of kids that start in grade one will pass math in grade 12. 4%. So you have 96% of your population that cannot count. So the quality of jobs and the amount of jobs that they'll get is few. So the amount of unemployed people, the volume of people that are unemployed is growing year on year. And it just doesn't make sense that one should live in this country and think that that's okay. So we put as much effort into educating people and just basic skills. So first of all, Nika capital is the foundation that we form really is the structure we formed where we could have got as a legal shareholder in our company and then Nika capital uses of its funds and it throws it into schooling. So there's a few schools up here in Pretoria and Johannesburg, Christian schools. So we try and throw all our skills in there, all our networks, all our relationships and as far as possible that we could use our resources and our assets. And money is just a very small part of that. The lady that works in our kitchen, who cleans our house, looks after our kids when we're not there Mita we are trying to do as much as we can for her and her kids. In terms of housing, schooling, the gospel, help them understand the gospel, help them live the gospel and preach the gospel in their communities. The guy works in our garden and and we just found that that is practical. And in South Africa, if one just starts there, you'll stay busy for the rest of your life, just there. You do not have to go off the big things, just those immediate lives around you. Influence them and help them educate themselves.

Daryl Heald: Yeah, thank you for sharing. Some of that is a real joy for me to see some of those schools with you on that last trip. I mean, how many students do you have in these schools now?

Bertie Lourens: They're all there's about a thousand students, I think in all the schools where we are involved. I'm particularly drawn to one school with its 200 kids. It's in the middle of Mamelodi township. It is a Christian private school. It's private because there's no other support coming from the government. So it's really donations. And some of the parents are paying fees to keep the kids in there. But it's beautiful what's happening there. It's kids that have all the odds stacked up against themselves. If they did not go to the school, they would go to one of our failing government schools that are producing the results I've just mentioned. So here we are creating an environment for them where they have great education, great principal with a great teaching group that we teach the gospel, we model the gospel, we show the gospel, we model grace, we model generosity, and we try and show them what good fatherhood looks like, because that's the one big lacking thing in the poor communities. There are no fathers there. So the way I see it is zero. 200 kids that will become 200 families one day and 200 families. We'll have a chance at success in South Africa because of this school. And that on its own is so rewarding because you look in the eyes of these kids and you interview them and you hear what they say and you hear kids say, I need to live generous with my fellow students. That comes from a kid that has nothing. And that's beautiful because that kid gets it. And that kid is going to enjoy success and joy because they get that concept of generosity.

Daryl Heald: That's great. Thanks for sharing that. Bertie, you also have a real passion for leadership. So what your study does for your own self as a leader, your company and your community and your family things. Tell us a little bit more about these. What's driven you to do these interviews with other leaders there in South Africa?

Bertie Lourens: Daryl I just started with interviewing my mentor when he was getting old and I needed to have some video footage of what he's taught me over the years. So I asked him ten questions. Some of the questions are ones I've never had time to ask him and some of the questions that I asked that deeply impacted me. So I asked him that I took a video of it. We broken into ten little snippets, videos, and the purpose was really just to release it into our organization. But the value was so much that [...] story YouTube channel called Stories that Inspire we posted on there, and then for anyone to enjoy. And I thought, That is wonderful. I asked God if He wants me to continue with that and felt peace to go find another leader like him. And my deal with God was if he had to keep sending me people that are willing to be interviewed by me, I will continue to do so. And we are on Series six, I think, right now, and I'm just enjoying hearing from these people because everyone who has achieved a level of success are always keen to share it. They're not stingy. Everyone who is a success wants to share it. So that's what I do. I go ask them and I try and package it in snippets that other people can enjoy and use and benefit from.

Wiliam Norvell: Amen, Bertie, as we come nearer to close, I want to give you an opportunity just to maybe speak, to just have an open mic a little bit again, to talk to the entrepreneurs out there that may be listening and any other advice that you might have about, you know, just how God taught you, you know, to lead a business from a faith first perspective.

Bertie Lourens: Thank you, William. Yes. This all comes from the journey of starting to surrender. And I have developed a conviction that our Father wants us to steward his stuff on his behalf. Now, we've heard this. This is old turkey. But if we can just pause for a moment and think if your earthly dad had assets worth hundred billion dollars and he asks you, my son, would you take over the running of this company while I'm alive? Then what would you do? How would you do that? Well, the first thing is you'll be very fearful and respectful. And as you step into those very big shoes, but you will honor him in every one of your decisions. You will seek him in every one of your decisions, and you almost check in with him daily. And our father, the creator of the universe, has created resources that generates about $90 trillion of GDP every year. We're his sons and we're his daughters, and he wants us to steward these assets on his behalf. So why do we get caught up so much in what we create and what we hold on to this such a big journey out there, a big calling for us. And I almost feel like our father is sitting on the edge of his seat, waiting for us to surrender and let go of our stuff and the power that our stuff has over us and said, God, I'm your son, and I'm here to steward your assets on your behalf for your glory. God showed me in Romans eight from about 19, and this is my translation of that. The all of creation is waiting eagerly for the Sons of God to stand up and reveal themselves and say, Here we are. And then to do what? To rescue creation out of the bondage of corruption, and to then steward it in a way that gives glorious liberty. What is glorious liberty? It is it's a freedom that gives glory back to him. And I think that's our calling us sons and daughters. So when he gives us assets to steward companies and people, he wants us to steward it in a way that brings liberty, freedom to the resources, the earth that we stewarding, the animals, the plants, the river, everything, the resources in it, and the people and all of creation should bring glory to Father because of the way that we, his sons, are stewarding his assets. And I just think it's such a big calling that we cannot waste time to get caught up in stuff and status and accolades. And I just felt that the only way that I was able to do this is to reach a place of complete surrender. So when I gave God shares in the business and I gave him control, it almost felt like that was absolutely necessary for that to happen before I could really steward things on his behalf. Before then it was all for me. As for me, my family, their inheritance, my legacy and all that nonsense.

Wiliam Norvell: Oh, I love that. It wasn't something you begrudgingly did. Or maybe you did, but it was necessary. It was like that was the only way for it to work, actually. And sort of God's world is to take that step of obedience.

Bertie Lourens: Yeah. And I want to add one more thing. The second point to that is the idea of generosity, how we live, generous lives. I realized that our father is a generous father, and the father of lies is a stingy father. And selfishness and stinginess come from the fear of scarcity. And generosity comes from the understanding of abundance and abundant provision from my father. And it's almost as if we could live our lives in either one of these two veins. You can't be in both. And when you realize that my father is the father of abundance, and I can share my resources abundantly with the ones around me, and I can live abundantly gracious with the people that I need to employ, my family, my friends, my neighbors. Then you see the lies of the enemy. But until you make that choice, you live in the lie of the enemy. You always think, especially in South Africa, in a declining economy, how can I put away as much as I can now so that my kids will be okay the day when I die? And I think we all live with that fear. That is the father of lies that are whispering those lies into our ears. And he whispered little lies. He puts little packets of lies and fear around our lives, neatly wrapped as gifts, tiny little packets. And as soon as you take the one and you open it up, you give him legal right to enter it and cause havoc. And you cannot live in faith and fear. So faith says, my father is abundant, is my provider, and he will look after me and my family and fears is. It's up to me to put away as much as I possibly can now so that my kids and my family are going to be okay one day.

Wiliam Norvell: Hey, man, I almost hate to ask you another question. A wonderful place to end, but we do have to get to our closing question because we always ask it. And so usually I would cut myself off. But thank you for sharing that and our closing question. What we love to ask is just where God has you and his word today, where he has you in his scripture. And that's something that, you know, you could have been meditating on for a season. It could be something God revealed to you this morning. But just to let our audience in to where God's walking with you in his holy word today.

Bertie Lourens: William, I want to share something that happened over the last week. I got busy. I had to travel to Cape Town, came back, went on a mountain bike ride, traveled again. And this morning when I sat down, I opened my word. I saw that for the last eight days I did not have a quiet time. So of the last eight days, I got so busy that I didn't sit with my father and I speak with him. And I realized the day before I exploded in the meeting because I acted out of my flesh, out of anger, and when I sat with God, I repented for not seeking him daily. I loved busyness to come and take me away from him. And I felt the father showed me the picture that the enemy wants us just to move away from my father slowly. You'll never come with a big bang for your giveaways. Plan will come slowly. You'll distract us with things that he knows will move us away from our father. And if he can get us away for long enough, then he introduces stage two, which is lies and fear. Because if we've been away from my father long enough, he knows that we will not hear this Holy Spirit in the moment. And He introduces little lies. Once we take them, he comes in with a lot of lies. And after a week I was operating fully in my flesh, making fleshly decisions and exploiting it people for making bad decisions. And that's just a fresh revelation that I do not sit before my father every day. And ask him advice and if I don't sit in his word, soak into his presence, and I listen to the Holy Spirit. I do not care how long I've been a Christian. I will fail. I will act in the flesh. And I'll make bad decisions. And I'll disappoint them.

Wiliam Norvell: Hmm. Amen. Amen. So grateful for you joining us today. So grateful for your story. So grateful for sharing what God's done in and through your obedience and at times your disobedience. And thank you for sharing both of those and how he still comes to the rescue through all of those examples. So grateful for you and grateful for your story.

Bertie Lourens: Thank you, William.