Episode 34 - Bridging Church and Entrepreneurship in Cairo, Egypt with Tony George and Peter Ramzy

Despite the North Africa and Middle East being known as an area closed off to Christianity, Tony George and Peter Ramzy are tapping into the ancient roots of Faith Driven Entrepreneurship that exists in Egypt. 

Under Tony’s leadership, the Community (tC) Egypt disciples young people, recovering addicts, women, and business professionals and prepares them for the labor market. Out of that organization came the Oasis Accelerator programs, which Peter now oversees. 

The program provides local Egyptian entrepreneurs with purpose-driven skills to grow their businesses. 

In partnership, Tony and Peter are equipping Egyptian Christians with the community and tools to create a transformative impact in the region.

Episode Transcript

Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.

Jacktone: Hello and welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa podcast, where we spotlight the voices of innovators and entrepreneurs shaping the marketplace across the continent. This week we are featuring Tony George Rizk and Peter Ramzy. Tony and Peter are mobilizing resources for meaningful cause in Egypt. Tony is a director and founder of the community. Egypt, otherwise known as tcEgypt. The organization exists to serve the Christian population in Egypt and the Middle East through discipleship, recovery, women empowerment, character formation and social entrepreneurship. Peter is the head of the Oasis Accelerator, a business accelerator created by tcEgypt, which helps entrepreneurs in Egypt start, grow and expand their businesses while maximizing their impact. In the past five years, Peter has mentored more than 30 growth stage companies and more than 100 idea and early stage ones. We are excited to hear about their passion for mentoring and equipping the next generation of entrepreneurs to lead meaningful lives. We hope you enjoy.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Okay. Welcome to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast with my dear friend and co-host Efosa. Efosa welcome.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you Ndidi, good to be here.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Great to connect with you all. And we're delighted to have two dynamic entrepreneurs and social change agents from Egypt. Peter and Tony, welcome to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast.

Peter Ramzy: Hello.

Tony George Rizk: Hello.

Peter Ramzy: Glad to be here.

Ndidi Nwuneli: We're so delighted to have you. And I know that some of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur team joined you in Cairo recently. They told us a bit about your story. They were so inspired and so energized from their time in Egypt. God is doing amazing things in Egypt through people like you. And Tony I'm going to start with you, your church, the community egypt started as a recovery program because of your own struggles with addiction. Can you tell us a bit about that journey and how God helped change your heart?

Tony George Rizk: Yes, I go through a lot of addiction, like drugs, addiction and another addiction. And when I have 27 years old, someone invite me to attend in a conference. So I just go and attend. And 6th of October 2001, actually, I slept in the hall when they started the song, and I met Jesus and he told me clear how much he loved me. Tell me how he accepted me and how much he understand my weakness and my strong and he can use me. [....] for him. And I didn't received this message before, even from my family, from my dad. This is the first time I see someone is love me and he care about me and he understand me, understand my emotion. He understand my [....], my way of thinking. He understand my everything is me. And he told me clear, I created you by my hand And you are a very special and even the people, your family, your dad didn't see that. But I see because I created by my hand. You are like John so received my love. Accept my love And you. When you feel exhausted or tired, you just come to me and you will be good. I know you will. And this is in October 6th October 2001. After that, I try to understand who is God, who is Jesus? So I. I asked one of my friend, can you explain? He invite me to his home and he start to help me to read the Bible. And now I'm here 21 years in the journey with God. And now, after more than 20 years in business and in ministry and God use me and I'm happy.

Ndidi Nwuneli: That is such a powerful testimony of redemption, of second chances, and a personal encounter with God. So thank you so much for sharing that and for channeling your own struggles to help other people. We just applaud your dedication and commitment. Now, beyond the recovery program tcEgypt does a lot of work with startups and entrepreneurs in the area. You've got a CrossFit facility, a coffee shop, a production studio and other spaces in the neighborhood. Peter You've helped to start Oasis, which offers a four month accelerator program and the Genesis nine week training program in partnership with Synapse. Tell us about how you are mentoring and training the local business community in Egypt.

Peter Ramzy: So we have started like four years ago and we started with the question of how can we develop or help businesses in Egypt be part of great success stories and also be part of the change, the social change and the human change in Egypt and in the Middle East after that. And when we ask this question, we started the journey of in essence, we were a startup and we count ourselves still a startup that is helping startups, basically. So we wanted to walk the talk of what we tell our business is that you don't get a solution and you just want to throw it into your customers and you tell them to accept it. But we wanted to see what is really happening on the ground. What are people in need of? What are those businesses in need of that we can be part of achieving? We're not just replicating something that other people are doing and we walk the journey in the past four years of discovering those needs that we eventually reached. What we do right now when we were still iterating and we're still changing in the way we do that to reach something that is more effective or it helps them deeper. Right now, our mix is always mentoring, training and access to finance. We want to help people get the right knowledge, the right understanding of their businesses and how to take this to the next level. And then we want to walk them in a personal journey of walking into their business and seeing their challenges from a deep look. And then together thinking and strategizing and how to take this business to the next level. And then when they need the finances, we work with them through making them investable and then introducing them to the right financial institutions or people who can help them take this to the next step.

Ndidi Nwuneli: That's fascinating. And I love the fact that you are basically working with the church and the marketplace and finding ways for both to intersect and collaborate. How do you think those opportunities have emerged and what is the beauty of this type of collaboration?

Peter Ramzy: I think there is a tension here that it's a good tension that is happening. First is to introduce to the church community or the church and the institutions of the church in Egypt and the Middle East, how to think about the Kingdom of God in a broader understanding, in a broader definition, that the Kingdom of God comes to the place with its economic situation, a spiritual situation, humanity situation. It's a holistic approach. It's not just you send people to heaven. This is not the job. The job is to bring God's will to the area and to the country that we're in. So in a lot of that, we're trying to introduce this conversation to the church of how can we work together into achieving this and helping Christian entrepreneurs think that way and act that way. And then also helping both the Christian community and the Christian church into doing this with the broader community, helping them also live and be part of the change and achieve success and economic development and all of that. So I think that has been always a tension, a good tension of learning from the church. How can we go the extra mile together, but also trying to be part of the stretching of the church and understanding its broader role in the community.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you. Peter And that's a perfect way to end that because I want to pick that up. Egypt is vibrant, Cairo is incredibly vibrant. My sister lived in Cairo for a couple of years and it's one of the most like vibrant cities she's ever lived in. And businesses play a big role in the vibrancy of the country and a city in particular, but the country in general. Can you share one or two stories of how businesses are contributing to the flourishing of Cairo or Egypt?

Peter Ramzy: I think compelling stories is, for example, now in Egypt and I think in a lot of also Middle Eastern countries, we're seeing the emerging situation of refugees, for example, so that younger generation are becoming not just the younger generation of the city, but also the younger generation of other cities living in our city. And so one of the stories, for example, is a manufacturing business that has been committing to have 50% of their main people who work for it as Syrian refugees. And they have been growing as a business doubling and tripling year on year for the past four years. But also they are creating more jobs for those people and for other people in the city. So I think this is a very practical story that we have been seeing. The other practical stories, for example, that one of our companies that we work with are a platform that is for dentistry, equipment, online platform for dentistry, equipment for dentists in their own clinics, because one of their subsequent results of a median range, a median age and the median age of people in the city is that these are kind of small businesses, small clinics. We have a lot of young dentists emerging, and each one or a couple of people are starting their own dentistry business or dentistry clinic and they need a lot of support in the starting of the business. So right now, this kind of business is empowering hundreds of those industries, equip their own business, equip their own clinics, buy their own supplies in a very transparent way. That is not the dominant structure of this industry and also in a deep relationship with those people where they are part of how taking them be partners in the success with those younger dentists. So I think we can see like tens of those stories on how businesses can really be part of what can happen for the flourishing of the city.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think there's so much that we can do as faith driven entrepreneurs investors to really help cities and countries flourish just so much. It's partly why I do this so excited about this platform. Tony over the years you did something very controversial. You hosted an event called Jesus Hates Religion. Jesus hates religion. You heard that right. Now, this created quite a stir. Can you maybe just tell us a little bit about why you did this and why you use such provocative language? Why do you use such strong language?

Tony George Rizk: Yeah. So in 2014, August 2014, I take a two months for a sabbatical time after more than 15 years work, so that two months I start to pray and read and start to spend time with my family and my friend. And in this time I received an article about religion in Egypt and the Middle East and we read about the religion and how much we are affected by the religion way. We we are systemic culture, Coptic culture. It's all traditional culture. So I read a lot and I see how much. Even me, after I met Jesus, I still have a religion. I worship religion more than Jesus. I had guilty. I didn't see all of the love. And actually I loved people. And we spend a lot of time with the people 1 to 1, listening for each other, counseling. And I see how much religion is [breaking?] Our hearts [breaking?] our personality. Is, it's close the door between us and God? So I start of something helping me to start to break this taboo. So one of our friend in America, his name Alex [....], is he have a big church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. So he wrote a book about Jesus hates religion. So I said, I will open a page in the facebook. So I started by a page in the facebook. Actually. I didn't have a clear plan about big event and movement and all of that. It just page. I have time. I mean, a sabbatical time. So I started page. And in this time in Egypt after the revolution, that facebook is going fast more than anyone can imagine. So after two weeks, I have more than 10,000, like after three weeks jumping to 20 and a lot of message asking, what do you mean about religion? Who is Jesus and why he hates, and i start explain that. And I'm in a sabbatical time. I have a lot of time. I have a lot of energy. So I meet people. I meet young adult youth in the coffee shop, drinking coffee and discuss about that. And then I start to see a lot of people start to fight. In the same time, the younger generation asking more and more and the page jump to more to another 10,000. So I feel, okay, this is a time to go more for more steps. So I said, We will make an event in a big hotel and more than 480 attend. All of them is young. And the asking those question, we sing, we preach, we have a drama and then we share the gospel, distribute the paper and say if you all to help write your name and ask a question and we will help you. So a lot of people is starting asking more about the Old Testament, more about who Jesus and some of them asking help about to be recovered from addiction, and some of them asking why God created me, why I'm not success in my business, why God is not support me in my business. And in this time, we know that God want to use us in this three business, empowering, helping people, the younger generation, to be good understanding of why God created me, understanding that when I'm in business [.....] in business a more cause. Him and second facet is the recovery, empowering man and recovery from sex addiction, from drugs, addiction, all of this stuff and CrossFit because it's the healthy and helping the people to discover and understand they can, and the third facet is helping the local church because we see the number. It's a big number and we cannot serve all of these people. We said, okay, we will start, we will help, but we'll encourage the people to return back to the church. Because of that, we create a department for helping the local church and for discipleship. And now we have a digital church and we have more than 2700 member almost registered in our group. So as this is the journey, God use us. I met Peter in 2015 or end of 2015.

Peter Ramzy: Maybe 15, 14, 15, something like that.

Tony George Rizk: Yes. And we started this because he actually attends event. So after the event he come to evaluate and tell me and ask me. And I feel he's a genius. He's a very special man. He have a code. He understands that God want to change the business. And we said, we will meet, we will discuss. So we met every month like one time. And then I invite him to join our group to help me. And after six months, seven months. We take a decision to start this the market.

Efosa Ojomo: Wow. Wow. That's remarkable. And just thinking about the way God used you even during your sabbatical, planning a sabbatical, that's typically when people go and slow down and rest and relax. God gives you this idea that.

Tony George Rizk: It's not easy to relax.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. And you met Peter as a result. Now, Peter, shifting gears a bit, Oasis, it's not offered to only Christians, but the faith based identity of the organization is quite clear. How does the accelerator program open new doors for outreach and capacity building?

Peter Ramzy: It's a good question, and I think there are multiple angles to answer that. I think in some sense, like from an Oasis perspective, there is two points to look at this. First one is the conversation is really not about the identity of the people who come. It's not about them being Christians or being named Christian at the end of the day. The mission is a clear value system that is to being activated or shaped the culture in our cities. And I think when we look at this bigger mission of changing the value system, changing the culture of the city, there's a lot of opportunities to work with the wider community because there is a lot of non-Christians who are eager to make a change and being able to appeal to them in a language that they understand and also in their language that inspires them to be part of the change and introducing to them this kind of value system that they can engage with and walk through. I think we see it as a great opportunity to not just impact those kind of business theaters, but also widens the impact of what we can reach on a broader business level because we're not just reaching out through overtly Christian leaders, which is important, but also through men and women in business who are eager to make a change. The other angle of this is when we started, we started working with Christian entrepreneurs. But in the last question you were asking, the bridging the gap between the church and the entrepreneurs. If we're telling the church and the entrepreneurs, that there is a really bridge to this gap. We cannot just isolate our entrepreneurs together. Those two groups of Christian entrepreneurs are together while the wider community is not Christian. We are creating a bigger gap. So we need to be embodying what we're really talking about. And so we're exposing the Christian entrepreneurs to non-Christian entrepreneurs, and we're really being part of being a platform of opening this kind of discussion channels between those different kind of backgrounds for entrepreneurs. And how can these discussions be part of shaping they're both kind of people in their characters and their approach to the community and their approach to the business.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, and I mean, doing this in Egypt, in Cairo must be special because, I mean, Cairo is so unique. You've got this bridge really between Africa and the Middle East. How do you think through opportunities in the city? Do you think about these opportunities through that lens, like as a bridge, you know, Africa, Middle East, or do you think I mean, you're just so focused on on the field really in the region that keeps you busy enough.

Tony George Rizk: So we are in a starting point. We just have only three years, but we pray a lot and we try to start work in Africa. Africa in our heart, like as you said, we are in the middle of Africa and the Middle East, so we love Middle East, but we belong to Africa and we feel God put us in this area to build the bridge between both of them. We don't know how, but we are open and we try in the same time. Egypt is big. Cairo is big is very big like we have million 100 million. So we still try to work. We have a vision from Isaiah 19 about the 5 cities will speak the language of God. Egyptian will know God and God will known in Egypt. So we are in Cairo now and in Alexandria and next year will be in [.....]. So we are pushing hard, but still we have some struggle. It's not easy to find a leader, work with you and work and face is not easy to commit and to have the same passion and the same need as a Christian believer. Understanding, building kingdom understanding business, all of that. You cannot solve it easy. But it's. One of our prayer request to see a new leaders with us understanding and to help us to reach Africa and the Middle East. But we will be soon in Jordan. And we try.

Peter Ramzy: And I think we have been blessed by being part of a number of networks across Africa and the Middle East. And although we're not working in Africa directly, but I think being part of these networks have helped us be part of engaging the African and the Middle Eastern Egyptian culture together. And we're really right now working with our partners in these networks in trying to think how can we help African businesses and Egyptian businesses work together? Because there's a lot of business that can happen in this area. There's a lot of great African businesses that can really operate in Egypt or be part of doing business in Egypt or partnering with businesses in Egypt, vice versa. And I think this is an area of a great opportunity, specifically that there is a little bit of a gap between the African and Egyptian culture that has been in reach for years for a number of geopolitical reasons. But now with also being this being part of the direction of the country or the state where they want to help Egypt be part of its continent. We think there is a great opportunity for our entrepreneurs in Cairo to engage with other entrepreneurs in Africa, in the other part of Africa and South Africa.

Tony George Rizk: And we have one of our member. His name is Ahmed, he is starting to accompany to work in Kenya, not just in Egypt. So I think God will open doors, I believe God will open door.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Terrific. Terrific. Your ministry sounds amazing. The growth trajectory, the passion, it's all coming through so clearly. But I imagine that you've faced some setbacks and challenges over the years given that you're working in a predominately Muslim society. What have you encountered and how have you overcome it?

Peter Ramzy: I think when we think about that, the main challenges wouldn't be direct challenges related to working in a predominantly Muslim culture. But I think the main challenge would be in the area of operating in a different value system. Not all the value system is different. We share common grounds, but there is a number of value systems that are different, and operating in such context always keeps you really alert of how you engage with this wider culture. What you really accept from the broader culture that is not against the values, but it helps widens the common ground and what you need to be really focused and predetermined on your own values in this area. And how do you communicate these kind of values to the broader community? Because you can be communicating these values in a way that insults the wider culture. So you don't really benefit from that and you are not really part of the change and you can really isolate yourself in a way that really doesn't help you being part of the change as well. But the harder way is how to engage in a way that is helping you be part of the change, but is also respecting the other in a way that you keep this discussion or this channel open between you and them. And I think this is easier said than done because it's a balance that is hard. Sometimes it might make you compromise on some values that you have, and sometimes it might make you like kind of face the different culture in an opposing way that is not really helpful. So keeping the balance, I think this is one of the hardest things.

Tony George Rizk: So let me explain another part, which is another perspective. So Egypt is big. We can not say all of them the Muslims didn't love towards Egyptians, but I can say it and will be honest. Some of them is very radical and they didn't want to work with Christian, but some of them is very nice. They love us. They trust us more than any people, and they preferred to work with us. So it's a big diversity is different. Culture is different perspective. But I can say, like we have a lot of here company related to Muslim Brotherhood, so they support more and invest more with Muslims. So yes, but still, we have a big grace. We have a lot of Muslims love us and support us and being with us. So sometimes within Egypt, Egypt is bigger than we can imagine. The number is huge and we are a city of foreigners. So we have a lot of friends who come from a different background. So not all of them is very tough, but it's different.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Amazing. Amazing. And a lot of your work has to do with young people. You talk about young people and Egypt being predominately young. And I'm just curious, you know, what is it that is attracting youths, young people and what attracts young people to your mission? And how are you leveraging media to engage the next generation?

Tony George Rizk: So yes, we thought the idea of that tc is a starting in the revolution when the young generation go to the street and asking for a change and asking for something better for them and for Egypt. So our heart to more and more about young generation especially, is that church cannot reach the young generation. So our focus, our dreams, our targets, our vision to empower and equip and helping the young generation. And remember, 64% is young in Egypt. So this is why we are focused. We focus. This is our heart. These our passion. Actually, we are more than 120 employee in our organization. 80% is under age of 27, 25. We have people at their 18, 19 work with us. So is the biggest percentage of tc employee is young because of that they helping us to understand and to think and to plan. By that we will be catchy for this generation.

Ndidi Nwuneli: That's awesome. You want to add something, Peter?

Peter Ramzy: Yeah and I think when we're thinking about a bigger scene of Egypt, I think if we're thinking about the future, a big part of that is about the next generation, because this is the generation. If we're saying that the biggest percentage is under 25, where the median age is 25 years, that means, I don't know, in ten years. Those are the people who will be in every corner of the country, whether in government, in state, in business, in churches, in ministries, in NGOs, in universities, in all these kind of stuff. So if we're saying our mission is to be part of the cultural change, I think if we don't focus on this next generation of people, we would be really missing the target.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Terrific. Okay, good. So I'm going to just go through Rapidfire questions just to 30 seconds responses. We call it a lightning round, and we just have to respond really quickly. Either one of you, whoever feels led or whoever can get to the question first. So, number one, what's the best food in Cairo?

Peter Ramzy: Syrian food.

Tony George Rizk: Molokhiya

Ndidi Nwuneli: Syrian food is the best food in Cairo, Tony do you agree?

Tony George Rizk: I can say Molokhiya, Molokhiya is nice.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Wonderful. Wonderful. What's a misunderstanding of Egypt you wish would go away?

Peter Ramzy: I think a lot of people are thinking that Egyptians really walk with camels and things like that's coming from the West. Do you really think that you will go to people where, you know, they're driving their camels to work and stuff like that? But it's not really the case.

Tony George Rizk: For my perspective. Egypt is here, I want to say that we are enjoying here. We are happy because a lot is in Egypt and we love that God put us in Egypt and Middle East and the Africa.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Wonderful for such a time as this. Now, how do you meet one another?

Peter Ramzy: I think randomly where I attended the event that Tony started after the revolution. And then I thought that was really an interesting conversation about Jesus hates religion. So I sent him a Facebook message and we met after that and we were just talking randomly, I think. Yeah, I'd say after the event.

Tony George Rizk: I think God's plan.

Ndidi Nwuneli: God's plan, divine intervention and divine connections. I love it. What's something you do to find rest?

Tony George Rizk: I try to swim in the Red Sea.

Ndidi Nwuneli: Fantastic. What about you, Peter?

Peter Ramzy: I think that the red sea is definitely a thing. Oh, and I like food, so I go have a really nice meal somewhere with my wife where we eat steak and enjoy.

Tony George Rizk: The problem he tell himself. He is good in cooking, but actually, I don't know. His wife is better than him.

Peter Ramzy: Okay.

Ndidi Nwuneli: So we're going to have to test your food when we come to Cairo next. And the last Rapidfire question is, what should more entrepreneurs know about working with their local church?

Peter Ramzy: I think entrepreneurs has to understand that they can really bless the church and they can really be blessed by the church. It's not that the church has to serve them and they are the receivers. They are the people who need the guidance. And it's not that they really are upper than the church or something like that, but they can really benefit from each other for the benefit of the bigger mission.

Efosa Ojomo: Awesome. Well, thank you. We're reaching the end here, and we'd just like to end with a question. And we'd love to hear from the both of you. You know, what have you found in God's word that has stuck out to you recently? What, from his word, is he teaching you right now? So either of you could go first.

Tony George Rizk: So I'm focused now about when John is 17, John, when Jesus is praying for the people and you say to be one in me. So I'm trying to look now to help the community and Christian community to build and it working and working together, it's touching the Lord my heart. It's giving joy. It's giving enough. I mean, satisfaction is giving the life meaning to be one together. And in him, Jesus inspiring me this especially this season in my life.

Peter Ramzy: I think one of the things that I'm reading and thinking and praying about these days is in the revelation when John is saying in his revelation that God is creating a new Earth and a new heaven. And I think if we as Christians understand this, understand what is really the meaning of a new earth and a new heaven, and we can really reach out with hope, with a big hope message to the other people or to each other. And we can really operate with an eternal view of stuff. And that can really excites us. It can put passion in our hearts and it can also renew our minds and give us a depth of what we do that is just beyond what we're doing right now.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you. Thank you both so much for spending time with us. I love the closing messages. John 17 Unity. And you know, the body of Christ being one and revelation, a new heaven and new earth that God is creating and that can incite in us hope. It's been a pleasure to spend this hour with you. How can we be praying for you? How we could be praying for your ministry going forward.

Tony George Rizk: More leaders. God, send more qualified, strong leader believer.

Efosa Ojomo: Okay.

Peter Ramzy: I think praying that God would really open our eyes into his vision. What he really wants to create, what we do right now in order not just to keep doing it and just seeing what we have received from him a year ago is the same that he wants to do next year. But he just keeps our mind fresh of his vision and what he wants to do next.

Efosa Ojomo: Awesome. Awesome. Well, we'll be praying. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. And yeah, we wish you all the best and God bless you.

Tony George Rizk: Thank you.