Episode 12 - Lecrae and Ben Washer on Reach Records Origin Story
FDE Africa Full Description:
Lecrae is a staple of the Christian hip hop scene, and with good reason. The 2-time Grammy award-winner helped pioneer the genre and take it to the mainstream.
But Lecrae is also an entrepreneur.
In the early parts of his career, he and Ben Washer, now Co-Founder and CEO of Reach Records, were recording songs for summer camps and pursuing their creative dreams together.
Our global podcast spoke with both of them in 2020 to hear the story behind Reach Records and to learn more about how God uses people’s talents to glorify Him.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Jacktone: Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa spotlights the voices across the continent, which is why you will mostly hear distinctively African stories on this podcast. But we are also part of a global movement. So in mixing some of the best content from around the world to hear what God is doing in other areas as well. Today's episode with Lecrae was originally recorded on the Global Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast and we are excited to share it with you. Lecrae is a staple of the Christian hip hop scene when people are looking to define this genre. They look to him and with good reason. He has won three Grammy Awards. But before all that, he and his business partner, Ben Washer, were recording songs for summer camps and pursuing their creative dreams. The only way they knew how they joined the show to talk about the founding of rich records like Crazy Unique Career, and how God can use people's talents to share his message. Let's listen in.
Henry Kaestner: Lecrae and Ben, so pumped to have you guys on the show. Ben, I want to start with you and take a trip down memory lane all the way back to 2001 and KAA, Kids Across America sports camp in Branson. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, you created something called Egg Crate Studios. What was that all about? And ringing any bells?
Ben Washer: Oh, yeah, man, you're going back. I'm impressed. Yeah, the sports camp I worked at, Kids across America. We have kids that were bussed in from cities all over the country. And my job ended up being Camp Entertainment. So I was in charge of all the music and all the skits and games at camp for about four years. And over the course of that, the music was so central to camp that we ended up making a recording studio. And to call it a recording studio was very generous, was basically a little computer, mic, that was about the size of a quarter and some egg crates that we put up on the walls. And so we'd record some stuff for camp and have fun with it. But they've carried on the tradition there and now they have like a legit studio and yeah, it's part of the curriculum.
Henry Kaestner: What's it called? It's God Hopper or J hopper or something like that now.
Ben Washer: Yeah Jhop I think.
Henry Kaestner: So, okay, so this is obviously it's a long time ago was your primary motivation and what kind of get you going? Was it the entrepreneurial side of things, the innovator side of things, or was it more of the creative side of things?
Ben Washer: I mean, they're kind of connected for me. I've always been entrepreneurial, even from a young age, you know, I think about businesses I wanted to start when I was older and even in college. I remember talking with some friends about starting a radio station that was like half Christian songs and half secular mainstream songs.
Henry Kaestner: Yeah.
Ben Washer: So I always had a music bug and I always had the entrepreneurial bug, and to me, I lean more on the creative side of business, you know, marketing ideas, products that gets me going more than spreadsheets. Yeah, operations and, you know, finance.
Henry Kaestner: Guys, I think this is the first time we've ever talked about music on a program and really kind of the entrepreneurial side of the creative business or the creative side of the entrepreneurial business. William ,Rusty, am I'm mistaken?
Rusty Rueff: No, I don't think we've gone there yet. So this is...
William Norvell: I have zero musical talents. I don't usually talk about it.
Henry Kaestner: Well, you and me both. But Rusty, of course, was the chairman of the Grammy Foundation. He's got lots of experience there. So, Lecrae, I want to bounce over to you. I want to ask you a similar question. So rapping and creating big part of your story. I've been really enjoying listening to your book. I love audio books. I especially love audio books when the author reads them. So I feel like I've got a little bit of an insight in your life, and creativity has always been a part. But talk about the business side too, and talk about how not only did you see an opportunity to create, but how to see a business around it. Was that look like for you?
Lecrae: Yeah, I think I always love the idea of crafting empires, you know, similar to being as a kid. In my mind, I would just think of like, you know, a warehouse that did all these creative things as probably I'll shoot in my abilities. But in my mind I was like, Yeah, this part will be like a record label and this will be the film company. And, you know, that was how my brain thought as a kid. And it's funny because I really wanted to produce music and be a producer, but the artists who were rapping over my beats, I just didn't like what they were doing. So I started rapping over them myself and just took some initiative there. But it was always about being the catalyst. Even with our first album that we did on Reach, I wanted everybody else to be on it. I wanted all my friends to be a part of it. So it was always about trying to craft something bigger than, you know, kind of my own building and around myself.
Henry Kaestner: So you guys meet at Denton, Tex. Denton, Texas, is that right? Studying Bible under Tommy Nelson?
Ben Washer: Oh y.
Henry Kaestner: And I've got some friends who help me with some of the research, of course, but I had some friends who did that same discipleship program as well. And they could not speak more highly of it. What was it like for both of you? And how that form your faith in is that when the friendship really began?
Ben Washer: Yeah. I mean, my first memories of Lecrea are sitting next to each other in that class and there is a guy that kept falling asleep in class every day that was sitting next to I think it was you Lecrea. And so we had some fun. Like his head would start bobbing, you know, because it was 6 to 8 in the morning is super early. And, you know, nobody was sleeping full night's sleep and we'd get in there half awake and this guy was bobbing his head. And so I remember Lecrae taking like a Coke bottle and putting it under the guy's face so he'd, you know, leaned over and his face would hit it and then he'd wake up. And so we just had some fun on that. But yeah, it was a great time because we bonded. I think the cool part about it is our relationship started with a love for God's word, you know? So we didn't really connect on like, Man, let's build some music industry thing. It just what came first was we love the scripture and stopped a year of our life to go learn it under Tom Nelson. And that's the genesis of how you know our friendship started.
Lecrae: Yeah, I think what kind of stands out is, you know, music was obviously something I was extremely passionate about. And a friend of mine said, Man, you got to meet this guy, Ben Washer. They call him Ben WA. And now he knows his Christian rap man. And I was really expecting this, you know, young, hip, probably black dude, I'm not going to lie to you. And I saw it is six foot six, six, seven floppy haired Auburn grad come through the doors. So I was a little taken aback, but it was crazy because as being said, I think the entrepreneurial spirit that we embodied was like geared toward people knowing Jesus. It was kind of like this, not trying to sell Jesus, but just like expose the world to him, you know, like faith was the thing we were so excited to push. So us teaming up together was more about how can we collaborate to, like, get our faith far and wide and in the creative space specifically?
Ben Washer: Yeah. And then in addition to that class, then we also had this time outside where we'd served and he and I served at the same place, a place called McFadden Ranch, and it was outside of Denton in the country, and it was a juvenile halfway house for kids that were locked up. And so we would go tutor the kids together, put on church service. And that's another avenue of how we got like boots on the ground service with each other. And Lecrae would rap at church. We'd both speak at it, both be mentoring kids. So it was a great beginning. You know, I feel like on the right foot instead of just chasing after success.
Henry Kaestner: Ben, did you rap to.
Ben Washer: Nope. There are some.
Rusty Rueff: We've done our research Ben.
Ben Washer: some jokes in the past.
Lecrae: Some co-writing credit. .... over.
Ben Washer: I might have written part of the first song. You know.
Henry Kaestner: Hahahaha.
Rusty Rueff: might have.
Ben Washer: A little bit of a pen there. I'm mostly behind the scenes. You won't find me rapping anymore.
William Norvell: Hey, Ben, Lecrae. William here. You know, it's always good when you question God's faithfulness or whether he's there. You see him doing good things through Auburn people, and you're like, Yep, there's Jesus. You know, Jesus has got to be there. Only explanation.
Ben Washer: It is amazing how many people have come out of Auburn and.
William Norvell: Fascinating.
Ben Washer: It is really cool things in the faith.
William Norvell: Amen amen. Okay, so crossover. You're just getting there. We want to turn to that. And then, of course, reach right afterwards. But you were hinting at and I hear there's a great origin story of your first collaboration with Crossover that involves a voice mail and maybe some of the aforementioned rapping from Ben.
Lecrae: That's true.
Ben Washer: You know, I remember that this clearly I remember this clearly Lecrae. I was leaving McFadden doing some tutoring or something there and I was driving away. I was still on the long driveway for that ranch and I had a voicemail, my old phone, which everyone that was. And Lecrae said, I think I've got the beat for this theme song he was going to do for kids across America. So theme that summer was crossover and he was going to do the theme song and he left me the beat. You played it on the voicemail and I loved it. I just remember like freaking out in the car thinking like, that was the best beat I'd ever heard. And then we went and recorded in some guy's closet that you found in a phone book or something?
Lecrae: phone book. Oh, my God.
William Norvell: Well, listen to that. Listen to that. So that's a long partnership. So take us from that. So that's where you are in a phone booth, you know, with a phone book, you know, not says that you're going to end up where you are today at the Grammys. So take us to reach a little bit. What was that journey like? At what point did you flip from, hey, this was fun, we met each other. You know, this was entertaining to, you know, let's bring in some people to actually triply, you know, and this is a serious career move. This is real. You know, we can do something through reach records. How did that happen?
Lecrae: So I remember, you know, Ben and his partner at the time, Chris, you know, had the idea kind of like, hey, let's start this label. And so they used their I guess it was yours. You know, whatever a life savings is at 22 years old, whatever that is, to get it off the ground. My life savings at 22 years, I would have been a cheeseburger, so you know that. But I remember, you know, them kind of trying to woo me like, hey, is this about God? But what do you think? If we did this album and I don't know where y'all took me to the rooftop of some place. Yeah.
Ben Washer: His dad's, like, uncle's office or something. They had a cool view, but, like, you feel important.
Lecrae: Yeah, but I remember just being excited to see, like, because I've always been inside person that moves a million miles an hour. And so implementation has never been my strong suit. So having the ideas is always been great. But like seeing them implemented and having people who can come alongside and make it happen is phenomenal. And Ben and Chris were way further along in that kind of process. And so just to be able to, you know, put the songs on a CD was like amazing to me. To me that was like, I cannot believe these are my songs, my words on an actual CD that was like huge. And so that part for me was just like, I would have died right then and there. I would have been it. But like you were saying, it kind of went from there to just recruiting people. I was a part of a campus ministry there and I was recruiting people who I knew were talented within the campus ministry, who could sing, who could rap. If you didn't have any talent, then come speak on an interlude. And it was just everyone was included on this project. And the cool part about it was it was a viral moment for us back then where Ben, I believe we took it up to camp and it was kind of like it caught on like wildfire.
Ben Washer: Mm.
Lecrae: Yeah.
Ben Washer: Yeah. Because they come in from all over the country and then have an experience of the music summer and then go back to their cities. So it spread all over the country through that.
Lecrae: Yeah. So that was neat just to see it catch on wildfire at the camp and it like, okay man we got something we got something here. Two others things I remember is orders coming in. I've never been so happy to sit in a living room and lick envelopes and sticks CDs and send them all over the country. I think somebody ordered something from Australia. It probably cost more to send it to them than we got for the actual purchase, but that was amazing. Just those days were sweet.
William Norvell: Oh, that's amazing.
Ben Washer: You know Tadashi was actually Lecrae's roommate.
Lecrae: Mm.
William Norvell: Oh really?
Ben Washer: And Yeah. So a lot of the early stuff we did was birth out of friendships. You know, it wasn't hunting down artists. It was just we're friends with these guys and Lecrae was friends with these guys and it grew organically from that.
William Norvell: That's cool. My favorite. I don't know if it's deep track, but go hard with you and Tadashi is still, my favorite song you've ever done. I listen to it all the time. It just like I had to suck up a little bit on the podcast, but it inspires me. My wife, just like I get chills just thinking about the words right now. And I've written a blog post on this before on FDE, so I'm not making this up right now. It just captures me every time I listen to it. And so just that stuff lives on forever and just thank you. And as I think about that, you're so creative, you know, and you guys are in and God gives us all different gifts. But Henry and J.D. Greer, a pastor in North Carolina, just did sort of a video series that talks about, as entrepreneurs, we are called to create and we feel God's pleasure over doing some of these things that we're created to do. And I just love if you could maybe give a voice to that, if that resonates with you at all. If it doesn't, obviously don't. But if that resonates of feeling his pleasure as you create music and as you create things and businesses and enterprises.
Ben Washer: Yeah, I mean, I think any time someone's able to exercise their gifts, especially if you're a believer and you're able to exercise your gifts connected to what you feel like is serving the Lord, I mean, that's like the perfect marriage. So if you've been to be an entrepreneur and you're able to start architecting and putting together pieces and creating, you know, something out of nothing, it feels like and you see it impact people. It's like the pinnacle of how you're designed. So I definitely agree with that. I mean, it's an exciting space to be in, especially at the beginning, you know, when you're all in and you know, you burn the ships and you're just going for it. It's a great moment.
Lecrae: Yeah, I agree. I also think it's something sweet about, you know, when you're able to exercise all your gifts and you're not overly concerned about how they'll be received or perceived, whether you know what I mean? Obviously, I think whenever you're creating something, you know, the market will always humble you and let you know what they think about it. But when you never anticipated the market to respond, you know, you're just excited for any response you get. And I think that was the sweet spot for us initially. Ben is like, he's great at visual art. He has a good ear for music, obviously entrepreneurial, dabbled in like technology. And so he was able to employ all those things early on because he was able to just fill in the gaps where there was nobody. So it wasn't like, I don't know if this is the best creative design. And it was like, well, who else is going to do it if I don't do it? You know, he's in making $500 a month at this homegrown label, taking on every task. And so that was the sweet part for me, me being able to go on the road. And, you know, we didn't have banners saying CD's for sale. It was like Sharpie on a box and those are the sweet spots, just being able to use your gifts in that way and then you hone them and you get better at them obviously, and you learn. But even to this day Ben may not design the art, but he now has an eye for quality and you know, he can delegate accordingly.
Rusty Rueff: So I want to pick up on that and move to sort of quality into what we could call excellence. Right. And you know, when you guys had the 116 click and you were trying to decide how you're going to stay sort of grounded, there had to be a moment, right? Because, you know, you weren't the first Christian rapper. I go back to Larry Norman. He wasn't a Christian rapper, but he was the father of, you know, Christian Rock. And then Shailene was doing his thing. But you found a place where there was secular receptivity, right, for your message. And obviously, you know, with church clothes and gravity, you're in the mainstream now. Talk a little bit about that sort of. How do you stay pure and excellent in Christ's eyes in the midst of a genre that's kind of not known for staying down the middle of the fairway? I mean, we've got other Christian rappers who, you know, claim to be believers and we won't have to go with who they are, but have no problem dropping the F-word or anything else. But that's not you. So talk to us about how you wrestled with that and then you know where you are today with that.
Lecrae: Let's say I could do is kind of give an analogy. If you imagine a one year old who can't walk when he takes his first couple of steps, he's probably going to fall. But when he falls, the people around him are not like shaking a finger at him, saying, you stupid toddler. You know, they're actually encouraging him saying, get back up. You can do it. And then what ends up happening is he takes a couple more steps and he falls within eventually, with encouragement and with help, he's able to walk for a sustaining period of time without falling. And I think that's a mark of what our stories been is being able to clap for each other when we fall or when there's some tension and being transparent and being honest when you're tempted to do it for the money. We tempted to compete for the wrong reasons or wrong motives. You can be transparent and people, when they see you making decisions for the wrong reasons, can say, Get back up, get back up. You know what I mean? And I think that's been the key for us, is being honest about those moments and giving each other grace and space and, you know, having a sounding board and encouraging each other to stay on the true north.
Rusty Rueff: That's good. Ben, you got anything to add to that?
Rusty Rueff: If I could brag on Lecrae. It's that I have a partner in this business that loves the Lord, above all things. And so, you know, we've had highs and lows throughout our journey, and I have absolute confidence. At the end of the day, Lecrae is going to want to obey what the Lord said in His Word and want to arrive at a conclusion that honors the Lord. And so whatever we go through, I know that's on the other side of whatever situation we're in. So that has been an amazing part of our partnership. And I was talking with somebody today and I was looking at a deal for some new thing we're trying to do. And the deal just didn't reflect this idea of partnership at all. It was like full of these things that communicate lack of trust. And I just thought, that's right. There's so many people that have these terrible experiences in partnerships, but mine is like, this is the greatest thing ever why would you don't want to partner up with somebody. But I think it's unique in the sense that over and above success, over and above status, at the end of the day, he wants to honor the Lord. And so that's been a great anchoring point for us along the way. And that commitment to excellence or the commitment to, you know, purity or the commitment or whatever, you know, that's in the background.
Rusty Rueff: Well, you also made another sort of countermove, right? So every artist dreams of being signed by a major record label, and you're signed by Columbia. All things look from the outside. It's going to be great. And then you don't re-up with them. Well, what was that about?
Lecrae: I mean, I think the intentions initially were great. The intentions were to relieve some of the strain on the staff. You know, you got to remember, we just had a number one album independently. It was a high moment. But then there's also, you know, I'll be honest, internally, it was a scary moment, too, because now you're thinking like, wait, how do we steward this? Well, what do we do? What's the next thing? And so sometimes I seek insight to a fault or, you know, it's like you're trusting, like all these other things to a fault. And I think for me, it was believing that that was the way toward stewarding this kind of thing that we'd built well. And the lesson I think I learned in that process is that you've got to know who you are when you walk into any type of partnership like Ben is saying, you got to know who you are, you got to know who your partner is and just have a real clarity of your goals and be able to be firm on that. And I think if you don't have similar goals, there's going to be a conflict of interest. And it's not a Columbia thing. It's just a reach. Records has a particular goal in mind. You know, at the end of the day, we want to honor God. We want to see lives changed and transformed. And I don't know of any major labels who would count that has their highest, you know, goal. So I think there's always going to be a conflict, you know, when your ambition is impact over, you know, impressing people.
Rusty Rueff: Right. Yeah. I so admire both of you guys and the purity that you bring to your music. I'm going to quote back. A lyric of yours that I think probably embodies it all from No Regrets off of church clothes. I hope we live twice because I can't wait to give up this life. And it feels to me what you both you guys have just been really great at doing is working towards the kingdom, using your talents, doing all the things that you need to do, touching people, but not compromising because you know the next life is the better one. So I appreciate that in you and Lecrae, I want to give you a chance to talk about the upcoming book that's coming out. The title is I Am Restored How I Lost My Religion But Found My Faith. That in itself sounds like it's going to be really interesting. So give us a preview.
Lecrae: Yeah. I mean, it's really the snapshot behind ascending the hill. You know, success. A lot of wins. But there's a lot of pain in that process. And then nobody deserves the amount of praise or criticism as we give to public figures. And so I wanted to give people an inside look at how that affected my heart, mind and soul and allow people to understand how the solution for the pain and the turmoil that I was going through was not more religion. And I think that's one of the things that, unfortunately, most Christians learn is religion. We learn that if I just have a quiet time, if I pray long enough, if I go to church enough times, and somehow that's going to fix my internal woes. And the reality is those things are things that we do because of our desire to want to know God. They're not things we do to get God to know us or to get God to love us. So we're doing that out of a love for God not to gain God's love. But I think I had to learn that especially being in, you know, an industry where performance garners you praise, when God doesn't work like that, you don't have to perform for God to bestow on you his love.
Rusty Rueff: And just to promote it. October 13th.
Lecrae: October 13th.
Rusty Rueff: Yes, October 13th, over 30 days. And so you can preorder now and we all should.
William Norvell: Hey, this may be a little off script, so feel free if you don't answer this question. I wanted to jump in there and ask this Lecrae, I follow you on Instagram. And I think you've just had a very important voice during the current movement, BlackLivesMatter and the pandemic and many things going on in the world. And I think that's a product of a lot of what we've talked about. You guys long obedient in the same direction. People know who you are. They know what you're after. They know you don't have an ulterior motive. They know you're not coming from that perspective. And I don't know. I just felt something in the spirit, I felt remiss not to give you a chance to speak to our listeners in whatever way you want about either how they should be thinking about this time or praying about this time, or consulting others or God or particular scriptures or something, whatever God may put on your spirit and yours to Ben to pass along to us so that we can dig deeper into what God wants to do during this time.
Lecrae: So this is something I think is really cool. Ben is a white guy from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, went to private school, goes Auburn and partners up with a black guy from completely on the other side of the tracks, but not only partners, but genuinely seeks to know, to understand, to grow and to serve. And I think it serves everybody well to have that type of humility, that type of empathy, that type of like. He's done a great job of walking through the fear of asking the wrong question. He's done a great job of saying, I don't know if this is stupid or what this means, but, you know, for a white guy like myself, what does this look like or what does this mean? Or give me your thoughts on this. And I think that space has served both of us well, because for me, it's allow me to see different vantage points and perspectives and say, oh, that's what people are thinking. And for him, it's done the same thing as well. I don't know. I guess I would just say and I let Ben chime in, I would just say, man, relationships just serve everybody well. You know, relationships really change things and not just kind of like a hi, how you doing? But when you need each other, you know, it's like you're not just friends at the golf course or at work, you actually need each other. And I think that's what God intended is for us to be a body. When you need your arm or you need your leg, you're more dependent. You're more like, okay, wait. Like my shoulders messed up. I'm like, Wait, what's really going on here? Because I need my shoulder versus like, it's just I don't know what's happening, but I can move on with my life. I really have to take time to figure out what's going on here and how can I work through that. So I think that's what's happening with us.
Ben Washer: Yeah, for sure. I mean, those are great points, you know, just echo that. It's hard to figure out which way to go over the Internet. And so my encouragement is the relationship side. If you don't have relationships with people that aren't like you, it's going to be hard to really put yourself in their shoes and understand and, you know, grow and be challenged and be open to correction. And all that stuff is really hard to do on Twitter. And, you know, that usually ends up creating worse separation a lot of times I've seen. So I would just encourage people listening. If you're wondering what to do, one of the first steps would just be genuine relationship and being able to go listen and learn and be willing to be challenged. And not just go in with walls up trying to prove something.
Henry Kaestner: Lecrae, thank you very much for having been with us before on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast is awesome. We had you and your partner Ben Washer on just talking about partnership, talking about the music industry, your own personal backgrounds and and so super cool to have you on too with with the Faith Driven Investor conference Faith Driven Entrepreneur Conference. And and so I want to just jump in a couple of things that we talked a little bit about when we had you on the podcast. The first one is called to create, our audience of Faith driven entrepreneurs will know that we talk a lot about these marks of a Faith Driven Entrepreneur and it really starts with this concept of call to create. We feel God's pleasure when we're creating something. How do you experience God in the creative process? I want to think about all the entrepreneurs we talked to on the podcast none more creative than you. How did you experience God in the creative process? And then what does it look like for you to be an entrepreneur in the music industry?
Lecrae: Mmm Great questions. I think, you know, creativity is really a very unique aspect of expressing, you know, what the theologians would call imago dei or made in the image of God. God is the ultimate creator, so he is the source of all creativity. He created the heaven, earth, the moon and the stars. And so when you are creating, you're actually reflecting his glory. You're reflecting back the awesomeness that He has instilled upon you. Ephesians two tells us that we're God's workmanship created for the things that He's preplan. And so when I create, I know that in some senses I'm walking in God's footsteps. And then the other beauty of creating is obviously God creates something out of nothing, so he can take nothing and make something. We use the raw materials that God has created to make things as well, following His example. But one cool thing that we get to do that no other creature on the planet can do is that we get to add value to things by creating them so we can take ore and metal and then shape it and molded and then we add value to it in the same way God took dirt and added value to it by breathing life into it. So I think that's something really special that I don't want to take for granted is that man, when people hear a song that I've made and they see it as valuable enough to want to purchase it, then I'm following in the footsteps of God because I've just taken sounds and thoughts and added value to them. And that is a beautiful aspect of being a creative. And as far as being in the music industry is concerned, I think that obviously entertainment is an unusual space, unlike other industries where you're creating a product. I think a lot of times the entertainment you are the product in some senses. And so you've got to learn how to disconnect yourself from the very thing that you're creating and not see it as necessarily an extension of who you are. So, yes, I did create this song. You don't have to like it. It doesn't mean you don't like me. I shouldn't take it personal. And one thing that my partner Ben have always said from inception is that we're not in the music business, we're in the people business. And so if you see individuals as valuable, then you create for them. You don't think about, how can I just make something and get over on people so they'll buy it? You imagine the person on the other end of this product that you've created and how they will appreciate it and how it will affect them, and you'll always win every time.
Henry Kaestner: That's really interesting. A lot of times Faith driven entrepreneurs will talk about the importance of loving on their customer and retaining their customer. I had never really thought about I had always thought of an artist kind of creating something kind of comes creatively out of them. But you're talking about the fact that you're very conscious about the people who are listening to your music and valuing them as individuals. And there's tremendous carryover to any entrepreneur that's creating a product or service that a customer is going to use. Maybe we see that a little bit with Chick-Fil-A in their concept of delighting the customer. Maybe some of that shows up in your songs. I've heard it.
Lecrae: Yeah, absolutely. You know, you're not making widgets and gadgets. You're creating an experience. And I think as believers, we should get that more than anybody else. You know, Apple is doing a phenomenal job of creating a user experience that things about the end user. How much more design thinking should we take into place? If we're called to love each other for call, to consider one another is better than ourselves. I think that user experience is a part of loving people, is a part of saying, Man, I want to bless you with hospitality, with graciousness, with love, with care, and with quality.
Henry Kaestner: You know, why is it important that people know that you're a great artist, not just a great Christian artist is the adjective Christian and [...] redeeming to mean. Excellent. Not second class. What's your take on that?
Lecrae: That's good. I think, you know, it's not a hill that I would die on. There probably was a time in my life when I would have, but it's not a hill that I would die on. I do think that Christian makes a phenomenal noun, a subpar adjective. So when you say I am a Christian, you're saying a lot about who you are and you stand for Jesus and you're a follower of Jesus. I think when we use an adjective, Christian, it's so loose. What does that exactly mean? So if I say I sell Christian water, what exactly does that mean when you say that? If you say Now, I'd be awesome if I said I'm a Christian plumber or a Christian investor, and you instantly knew that I operated with quality excellence, integrity, timeliness. That would be awesome if like whatever came after the adjective Christian meant that. But oftentimes it doesn't. And that should be the case. And so, first and foremost, I need you to know that I'm here to create quality work. I'm here to create. not at a subpar level, because I know that typically what we tend to do is will say, as long as it is Christian or bears the Christian message, we can deal with subpar quality. And I think that's a tragedy for us in society. So. So that would be my prayer. I think it's amazing when I find out on the back end that someone who does a phenomenal job at whatever it is I'm warning is a believer. You know, it's like, okay, wow, one for the home team because you did my taxes phenomenally accountant you know me now and and I you know you come to value that and appreciate that. But it's it's tough when that's not the case.
Henry Kaestner: Yeah. So you got a new book coming up. I've enjoyed getting through and I've said this before on the podcast to any of our listeners will remember I've really enjoyed listening to your podcast. Anytime you can listen to an audible book read by the author, you just brought in the guy story and there's a second installment of that restored. What's it all about?
Lecrae: Yeah, I'm restored power, lost my religion and gain my faith. I think, you know, the best way I could sum it up is that often times, as your Christian leaders, especially, they find themselves fighting to keep up the image, fighting to keep up the persona of all the things that are Christian leaders supposed to have. And what ends up happening for them is that there's probably too much shame to be vulnerable and transparent about the areas where they are not succeeding and are not winning because there's so many expectations of them. And that is religiosity. That's religion to the core is when you're performing for acceptance. That's not faith. Faith is when you can be honest and transparent and say, God, I don't have what it takes. I need you to do it because I don't have what it takes. So this book is about me coming to the conclusion that I was more devoted to my devotion to God than I was devoted to His devotion to me, you know what I mean? And that's really what it's about. It's about understanding how devoted to you God is. And out of a response to that, you find yourself devoted to him. But oftentimes we like to pat ourselves on the back for art. Look, look at me. I woke up at 5 a.m. Coffee Bible study. I'm doing great. And then when you struggle, everyone looks at you and says, Well, you're the five am Bible study coffee guy. Like, you're not allowed to struggle. You're not allowed to have to fall to fail. And I think that's sad. You know, even Apostle Paul talks about how he's the chief of sinners. He tried over and over again to count himself. I count nothing I've done as I count it all as a loss. He tried to place himself in a humble position to say, I'm so dependent on God that I cannot brag on myself. And I think that's that's the position that I want people to see. And I want people to feel that freedom of restoration.
Henry Kaestner: One of the things he came across really clearly in the podcast interview we did when we had Ben on the phone was this shared history that you have and the value of partnership and I believe so much biblical precedent being seen often too. And there's something really beautiful about being in partnership. Everything I've ever done successfully as an entrepreneur has been in partnership where some lessons you've learned and some encouragements you might offer up to the crowd about working and creating in partnership.
Lecrae: Mmm. Yeah. I mean if you, I'm talking to Christians out there and if you go to the ancient Jewish roots of our faith disciples, Jesus told His disciples in Hebrew They're called Talmudic, and he told them to go off and have a dream. And what that is, is pairs to go off in pairs, not to do it alone. As a matter of fact, when. They would study the scriptures. They would study it as a team in groups or pairs to bounce ideas and thoughts off of each other. Because often times we can be blinded by our own perception of how things should be. And so you can fool yourself quite often. But working in partnership gives you the opportunity to wrestle with ideas, to wrestle with your own ideas. It gives you a sense of accountability for things that you know are not wise. And so it offers you the opportunity to grow in ways, you know, just like being married. You know, single people think they're awesome. And then then they get exposed as soon as they get married, that they're not as awesome as they thought they were because now someone else has to see all of the areas that you did you weren't able to see. And I think that's the beauty of partnership, is you can see some of the areas and false that you may have. And then and then lastly, I would just say, you know, what you're doing ultimately in terms of partnership or teamwork is you're allowing yourself to take God serious when he tells us to trust one another, when he tells us to depend on one another, and also when he tells us that we in and of ourselves don't have all that it takes, you begin to appreciate the gifts that other people have. And I love staff and my weaknesses. If you know you're weak in some areas, you can staff them. And that's been a phenomenal journey for myself and the partnerships that I've experienced.
Henry Kaestner: So and this is very to be clear, this is very, very off script. And you can say, I don't want to go there, but here we go. I remember talking to J.D. Greer, who's a good friend of mine, saying, gosh, want somebody to do a sermon series on entrepreneurship Faith Driven Entrepreneurship And he said, Well, you know, maybe we can do it together. And we ended up doing this study. The Super Cool. When is a rapper going to rap on Faith Driven Entrepreneurship?
Lecrae: I That's a good question.
Henry Kaestner: We've got an audience that can't wait. It's a little small, maybe a little smaller than your audience you typically have, but know that we get a couple thousand people ready to buy that single, so you let us know.
Lecrae: It's good. You know what I got?
Henry Kaestner: Dude imago dei, you got a lot of stuff going in there. There's a lot of material. You've lived it.
Lecrae: I've got some thoughts, actually. You know what I mean? So I do have some thoughts. I thrown out a couple of gems here and there. You know what I mean? That people may not of caught, I may have to expound on them. You know, I remember one thing I said, you know, I knew a guy who made some money and he bought five chains, but he should use his money to buy five chains like franchises. Oh, man. See wordplay, right?
Henry Kaestner: Right I did miss that. But that's very good. Very good. Well, until you really see it, I'm going to hold on to that.
William Norvell: Amen, amen, as we like to call it, all of our episodes, we love to see how God's word does transcend between our guest and our listeners. And it's always amazing to us to hear the stories of how one of our guests shares what God's doing in their life through his word. And it connects perfectly with one of our listeners, as I'm sure you probably hear from your lyrics of, you know, you didn't write it to that person, but that person received it, you know, and that's what God had planned the whole time. And so with that, I want to transition to for both of you, you know, where my God have you today? In his word, it could be today. It could be the season of life. Maybe something you're meditating on that is coming alive to you in a new way. It could be something God gave you this morning, but just maybe you let our listeners in to where your journey is in Scripture today.
Lecrae: So two things. So one, I've been going through the book of John, and I think I've been blown away in a new way, seeing the Shekinah of the Lord, the light of the world, the like, God of creation, come to Earth in the most lowliest of forms. Like if God who came to Earth is Bill Gates, he still would have been taking a step down, you know what I mean? And he goes below below that, and that just blows my mind. And then at the same time reminds me when he says the first shall be last and I should be first, he really exemplified that. Like he really laid out as in an example of saying, Listen, I'm, I'm first. There's no one more first than me and I'm coming in born into an impoverished situation in a freakin Palestinian barn. And that just reminds me to stay low, to stay humble, to stay trying to serve, and to try to remember that the first will be last and the last will be first. So, yeah.
Ben Washer: It's great. You know, for me, I just finished this morning going through Exodus the past few weeks, and what's really standing out for me is how much God cares about holiness and His own holiness and how serious he is about it. And that's kind of sort of out of style right now to hear about holiness or to be called into. Being holy or this idea that God is holy and he's so serious about it that, you know, people have died for disrespecting it in the past. And so it sounds like, ooh, you don't want to talk about that now, you know, God's full of grace and all that. And of course, that's the huge part of the story. But I think. Respecting Him for His Holiness and challenging ourselves to walk in honor of that is a great thing and I've just been marinating on that. It seems like obedience is kind of out of style right now in some ways, you know, and I think it needs to be something we're seriously thinking through and praying through and seeking as believers.
