Episode 24 - Creating Africa’s Next Generation of Geeks with Lindiwe Matali
Lindiwe Matlali is making geeks cool in South Africa.
As the founder and CEO of Africa Teen Geeks, the largest computer science non-profit organization in the continent, Lindiwe is inspiring the next generation of innovators, entrepreneurs, and leaders in her country. She has a particular passion for helping those from disadvantages backgrounds rise from their circumstances and reach their potential.
She joins the show to talk about the faith behind her vision to break the cycle of poverty by providing STEM and coding programs for historically marginalized communities. Listen in to hear about the power of education, entrepreneurship, and prayer, and learn how she navigates the tension between non-profit and for-profit work.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Ndidi Nwuneli: Welcome. Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Faith Driven Investor podcast focused on Africa. I'm delighted to have Richard Okello join me as my co-host today. Richard, welcome.
Richard Okello: Thank you, Ndidi. Very excited to be here. I'm very excited to speak with Lindiwe our guest
Ndidi Nwuneli: Yes, Lindiwe is a star. I met her in Davos earlier this year in 2022 and was just blown away by her vision and confidence. Lindiwe, welcome to the show.
Lindiwe Matlali: Thank you so much for having me. And I'm just as inspired by you. Your CV is like crazy, so thank you so much for having me.
Ndidi Nwuneli: Lindiwe. You know, you carry such an aura around you of royalty. For those who haven't met Lindiwe in person, you have to. I'm just so inspired. And let's just start off very quickly with your story. How did you end up as a social entrepreneur, as a leading social entrepreneur for the South African, what was a source of inspiration for you?
Lindiwe Matlali: No, thank you so much. I don't think there's much a bigger story except that I think I just was inspired by a tall girl. I met while I was doing a program at MIT who was coding. And that's where my passion really, you know, started in terms of wanting to introduce kids to specifically from South Africa and disadvantaged communities into coding. And after seeing her and that moment, something just arose inside me and I wanted to do something. As she was talking and presenting, I started googling, you know, people's emails and the first person I was able I actually got the email address off was Mr. Tognetti at the time he was the managing director of Microsoft and I sent him a cold email, told him who I was, and I was just here now in the U.S. and I see this girl and I google what was happening at home. And I found that only 10% of our schools were teaching coding, but mainly in affluent schools. And I wanted to do something about it. And to my surprise, he responded immediately and said, When can we meet? And I was like, You know, I'm flying back home tomorrow. I'll be home probably around 11. And I was like, Well, you know, if your flight arrives on time after time during my lunch, so come and I flew like basically from the airport to Mr. Tognettis's office at Microsoft, South Africa. And that's how Africa Teen Geeks was born at that time. We're not registered. It was just a plan. And the vision that I put together, you know, on the plane and on my way home, and it resonated with him and we got our first grant. So that's really how it started.
Ndidi Nwuneli: I love it. It's about having a vision and passion and making it happen. And you know, when you talk about African Teen Geeks, usually the word geeks is viewed as an insult, right? But you've spin it to be positive. And, you know, now being geekiness is something people aspire to, can you talk a bit about that switch and even what your website says, a dream factory. That's what Africa Teen Geeks is. So what exactly is your mission, your vision, your values, and how have you made the word geek more powerful in our context?
Lindiwe Matlali: Yeah. I mean, I think being smart and, you know, growing up and I think even for myself, a lot of the kids who are smart most of the time will be the kids who are most bullied. Right. Because the way that you are smart. And maybe you you know, sometimes it can be socially awkward. And I think for me it was helpful because for a lot of poor kids like myself, you know, growing up was often the only way out for us was through education. There was no trust fund. There were no I had no, you know, family who was educated. I mean, it was only after my brother went to university before him. It was like we didn't have a role model in our house who actually made it through education. But as Nelson Mandela said, it is only through education that a child of gardener or domestic worker could become a doctor or a teacher or a lawyer. So for me was the only way for us to change our background or to break the cycle of poverty. For a lot of poor kids, their only way is through education and education, the only way and also for them, they need to study hard so that they can get [....] because their families don't have the money. So we had for me was just to show them that there's other ways of success because for poor kids, most of us, when we see somebody successful, will be an entertainer Beyonce, a DJ or a soccer star, but you know that only few of those can, you know, succeed. Because if you look at the standards of how many new musicians who wish they could be Beyoncé, that tells you the story. That's not a very easy industry to be in, but we can all be successful through education. You can have more professionals that live a decent life and be middle class through education. So that is why for me, it was to shift the way being smart and the way being a geek is perceived so that these kids can realize that the only way for them to succeed is if they get good education. And because they don't come from good families, then they need to be smart for them to be able to access the possibilities that are available.
Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that the power of education and the power of vision. Can you just talk us through what your organization has been able to accomplish over the last decade as you have pushed through with this vision?
Lindiwe Matlali: I mean, we've accomplished a lot specifically in South Africa. We were able to support our Department of Basic Education to develop a coding and robotics curriculum that actually we funded. So they didn't pay a cent for the development of the curriculum. We went out there, fund the money, got the experts and got them to come and work. And also being able to assist the government as well in putting infrastructure in poor schools where we've now reached over 1500 schools that have had computer labs donated by us. So, you know, that for me is something that is really special because, you know, changing policy is very hard. And to be able to influence policy and getting it done and now we are supporting them in training teachers. I mean, so far we've trained over 8000 teachers that we are supporting to make sure that they can implement the curriculum. And all these teachers are teachers that teach in poor schools. And that's the only, you know for us, because otherwise, if you don't do that, you can have a great tech curriculum or coding curriculum, but it will only be taught in affluent schools that already have the infrastructure. So you can't just think about policy alone. How do you also support in terms of making sure that it is implemented and in an inclusive way?
Richard Okello: Lindiwe, your story is very exciting. You know, I moved to South Africa about eight or nine years ago, and I have seen firsthand for myself some of what you describe in terms of the amazing potential that exists and the gaps that also exist in terms of trying to capture that potential from young people. Some of our listeners, I think, will be listening to your story and getting excited and energized, but also wondering about the challenges. Could you talk to us a little bit about the challenges you have faced in trying to do what you've done and how you've navigated those challenges?
Lindiwe Matlali: I mean, I think just like any institution or startup or whatever, I mean, funding was always the biggest challenge. You know, trying to get the funding was hard. And it really, especially when we're trying to scale and you walk into boardrooms and sometimes people will, you know, you'll feel insulted. I mean, there was one specific, you know, meeting with one of the biggest banks. And I walked in the and what was funny was that the person who was the head of CSR, was a black woman. And she just went on and in, you know, like it was so insulting. Who are you to think you can do this? What kind of background do you have? And, you know, and I walked out this, you know, thinking, oh, my God. And I was like, you know what? And afterwards she was like, Well, let's continue the conversation. I'm like, No, I don't want to have the conversation with.
Richard Okello: Not with you. Not with you.
Lindiwe Matlali: Yeah. I was like, You know what? But I believe that the vision I have in my heart comes from God. And I have to believe that if He has given it to me, then He will give me the road that I will need to shed when sometimes we're not coming to, you know, like when I have to cross the sea. So that was it. And I never went back to them. But a lot of doors and opportunities because God will bring the right people at the right time. And those people, when they come, you may find that they wouldn't even wanna hear your story. They wouldn't even want you will know that the seed has already been sown and God has already gone before you. And you'll be speaking to someone you know who's already. Sometimes you come in and said, This is what I want to do. You know what? I've been told to do this for ten years. So let's do it together. So those things do happen. And also and I think for many young people and when that happens, it could discourage you and you feel like, you know, why would this person treat me like this? Because they don't even know me. They haven't even did their homework to check my CV to know that I am more than qualified to be doing the work that I'm doing. So why would they do that or say that to me? And that happens. And you just need to understand to say not every person you meet will come to you. You know, I like the quote by T.D. Jakes when he says, not everybody who follows you is following you because they support you. Sometimes it's more like when you you sing and you see a lion following a gazelle. It's not necessarily true [....] it's gone on to eat it. And the same thing with life, too, is that not everybody who follows you is following your because they support your mission and you need to be able to understand that and discern. And when that happens, you need to gracefully say it's okay. You know, I know that the next door is going to happen because if your dream comes from God, he will make it happen. He will provide.
Richard Okello: Fascinating. And obviously, a lot of those challenges that you sort of described now are I would put in the category of external facing challenges that are part of the environment you operate in and so on. But talk to us a little bit also about the internal challenge of trying to build an organization with the right type of culture, trying to extend your passion to your broader team. You know, within a very difficult operating environment and enabling them to sort of cuts that vision and building a culture around the team that then drives that vision.
Lindiwe Matlali: That's a very difficult one because and I think is something that I will talk about, about, you know, trust in God to bring the right people and also having the ability to discern because some people can, you know, their CV would look great. They will say all the right things, you know. But when it comes to working in terms of the environment, the culture that we want for us is you're working in environment, we want to help kids. We want to help people. So you need to be generous. And so you can't be somebody who is selfish with information. You can't be somebody who doesn't want to help the team members because you want to be the one who's always winning. You can't win alone. So you need understand that winning means the entire team needs to win. And I always speak about the importance of, you know, the impact. It's not about the accolades. It's about making sure that we have the right impact and the people that we are trying to serve actually do get the benefit. So, you know, I've learned the hard way, like most people, when you hire somebody and then they get to the organization interceding, is that, oh my God, what have I done? And you know that also you need to still have the compassion around how you're going to, you know, also get rid of that person. Because as a leader, unfortunately, you will be forced to let people go. And when you are Christian, you can't just wake up and say, okay, this person must go, because you thinking about the impact of that decision will have on that person's lives, their families of people who are dependent on them. But you also have the responsibility of building an organization. And, you know, with the right people who have the right vision, who are not selfish, you know. So I think I've learned the hard way but for me something that is really important. Now, I don't rush to, you know, bring people into the organization. We take our time. But I've also learned to say, you know, especially when it comes to influential positions, you have to also just trust that God will bring the right people because it's hard. And with our legislation, in South Africa I mean, you being here, you know, is how to fire people than to hire them. You know, that was to be like you can't just wake up and say you're messed up. Even if you've got the right reason, you can't fire them on the spot because the law says you must follow all the processes. And. Yeah, so it's a tough one.
Richard Okello: Hmm. No, no, I hear you. I want to pivot a little bit outside of the African Teen Geeks. I know you're also the founder and CEO of Apodytes, an award winning software development company. And a lot of our listeners will be entrepreneurs who focus on for profit businesses, but who also see the value of non-profits. And oftentimes we all struggle between the two options. You know, should we focus on the for profit and try to accomplish our passion that way or focus on the nonprofit? How do you think about the balance between the two, the advantages and challenges of sort of trying to do both of those or picking one of those?
Lindiwe Matlali: I always say I have two jobs, one that feeds my soul and one that pays my bills. And they are both equally important because, you know, when I started Africa Teen Geeks, I know how hard it is to try to make a difference when you don't have the money. So the money is very, very important. And so that's why for me, I focus on Apodytes is because if I have the money, then I am able to do the projects that I want to do. I'm able to serve the people that I want to serve without anybody, you know, influencing my decisions because, you know, as they will say it in South Africa, because Ki Morake, you know, Morake, you always have the last word and I don't want that. And that's why for me, building Apodytes is equally important, because I do want to make sure that I can pay the bills for both, you know, my family, my kids, but also the bills of Africa Teen Geeks. So, like, we are not just completely reliant on donations which sometimes can stall or you come with your great proposal and somebody tells you that you need to change it because they don't like the way you know, the direction you taking and you desperate. So you agree to that. And so because for me, the mission is that is very important and I want to support kids irrespective of where they come from and sometimes even those who may not do well at school. And if you see that they have the drive, some of those kids just need somebody who can say to them, I believe in you. And just hearing that would be what change that we, you know, they see themselves and they end up doing well. But if you focus on just, you know, these are the criteria that I am going to, you know, evaluate these kids and you don't think about their backgrounds, what is happening at home. You may actually end up missing a lot of kids who could have been great. But because, you know, of circumstances, they were not able to perform at their best. So for somebody who's, you know, wanting to decide what I think, both is important. If you are, you know, somebody who is focusing on a for profit, that's good because then you able, you know, give to programs that, you know, speaks to your heart so you don't have to feel guilty that you are doing well. You know, actually, if you think about it, every king or every person in the Bible that God had blessed didn't just bless them with wisdom alone. Even when when Solomon asked for wisdom, God gave him wealth too, because wealth is important. And if you poor, nobody listens to you. And that's the truth. You can be the wisest poor person. No president is going to listen to you. The only way to get that seat at the table, you have to be perceived to be successful. So you don't have to feel guilty about pursuing success as long as you know your heart is in the right place. As long as you know that you can allow God to use your success to bless other people.
Ndidi Nwuneli: I love the conviction and clarity of vision that you have. Lindiwe It's so refreshing to hear. I know you've not always been this confident. Most of us started somewhere, and you often speak about your grandfather and how he encouraged you to enroll at the University of Cape Town even after you lost your mother at a young age. Can you speak about the impact he had on you and how he shaped your passion and other people? Other role models or mentors who have walked this journey with you, ensure that we have this amazing woman who's breaking down barriers not only in tech but in many, many facets of life.
Lindiwe Matlali: No, I love my grandfather. And he, you know, he didn't have much. He was really poor. He was the textbook definition of being, you know, in the bottom billion. He had to look after 12 orphans after my mom died because there were seven of us. But my aunt also died two weeks before my mom. So my grandfather, who was really in the seventies, ended up having to look after, you know, 12 children all under the age of 16. And I was the youngest at three. So it was very, you know, tough. But one thing that he always taught us was the importance of education. I mean, you could get away with a lot of things be [....]. You could not get away with not doing well at school or not going to school. So I remember when we were young and, you know, when you are sick and you come home and then I can't go to school, my grandfather would pray for you. And because he was a pastor, so I'll pray for you and say, do believe you healed and I say yes ok then go to school you know unless it was something contagious and that was really important. And I think for us also the importance of prayer because we didn't have much. So all I see we had nothing in the promise of our future but Jesus. And that teaches you, one humility. And when you have to pray for everything and you even when you get it, it teaches you that humility. You can't even go up and, you know, outside and brag and think, I'm smart or I am that because you know that you are where you are because you know somebody was on their knees or you were on your knees to pray for it. So only God deserves the praise. So for me, there's been a lot of amazing people Ndidi, I can't like, you know, there'll be few that I can mention, but I can't even say one person because I can talk to you about, you know, the teacher who bought me school shoes when I was, you know, at school and I didn't have shoes. I can talk about my university professor, you know, who saw me after my grandfather passed away and took me in to go and babysit her kids who were my age. So you got to realize it had nothing to do with babysitting, but because he wanted to help me, but also knew that I was sort of had that pride, I wanted to work for it. So it's like, okay, come and babysit the kids. So I'll go to his house and end up studying with the kids because they were my age. So they didn't need any babysitting, but I needed that income for me to be able to take care of myself after my grandfather died. So there's been a lot of amazing people that I can say that God placed in my life at the right time. So I am a product of, you know, a lot of people, but most importantly, I'm a product of prayer. And just knowing that God can really, really do anything, you know, God can take someone like me. The other day, I was even telling my kids that, you know, every time when I read the Book of Psalms and specifically David, when he says, I am a wonder to many because you have been my refuge and know even if you go home, where I come from and people have known me growing up, they also cannot understand my life and I cannot understand it too, because it's just been God's favor, you know, in my life at the right time. Not that things have been easy. There have been moments when I've cried myself to sleep, but I've always also known that there is going to be victory, you know, over the clouds. So, yeah.
Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that I'm a product of prayer. I'm a product of grace, right? A favor and grace. That's just a tremendous story. Now, as you reflect on your success, many people say, well, the poor pray because they need God. But as you get more successful, oftentimes it's harder to stay grounded in your faith. What has grounded you and what has kept you strong in faith?
Lindiwe Matlali: I think it's because I know where everything came from. And I also know that, you know, one day you're on top of the world, the next the world is on top of you. And as easily as God can bless you, he can also easily take it away. And I think also my grandfather, I always used to talk to us about the importance of humility that God blesses the humbled and punishes the proud. So even when I find myself in moments where, you know, and I also I don't surround myself with people who are, you know, like my peers most of the time. I always spend time with people who are more successful than me and also people also who are less privileged than me. And the reason I do that, because it just it reminds me where I come from and why I need to always be, you know, be giving. And I need to always be doing my best so that I can help other people who are still going through what I went through. But also, when I'm around people who are more successful than me, it also reminds me that there is always someone better. There's always somebody who's done better than you, more successful, you know, more smarter with, as you know, how I love my make up artist with that much more there are make up artists that can make me prettier, but that for me is really important. And I pray every day. Every day when I wake up, I light candles. And, you know, my daughter was asking me, why do I light candles when I wake up as thing? And I was saying, you know, you can wake up and you rushing. So I must quickly rush get ready and poetry meeting. But when I see that candle, it reminds me that I need to pray. I need to take that moment to just acknowledge God and either to thank him or to pray that, you know, protects me as I go. And when I come home, I'm my candle most of the time will still be on one or two will still be on when I come home and I sit in my room and the first thing that I need to do is to pray. And that's why I have. Have that habit of just lighting those candles to remind me that no matter how tired, no matter how busy I am, I need to take a moment to acknowledge the author and finisher of my faith in my life.
Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that. I love the grounding yourself in prayer and ending your day with prayer. Now I know you're a big advocate for women and you've been doing so much around getting young girls into STEM. What do you wish more young girls knew about their own potential? And how can we all do a better job in instilling these beliefs within them?
Lindiwe Matlali: It is so important because especially for girls that come from disadvantaged or poor families, is that most of them, they think that their only way out of poverty is to marry well. And as we get older, you and I know that you could marry well, but then later on, that person could leave you. And if you don't have anything, you know, education or an ability to stand for yourself, you are going to end up despondent, you know, with nothing. And having, you know, given a lot of your life building something that can easily be taken away from you. And in a lot of cultures, even in Africa, I mean, we even have that, for example, in South Africa, in KZN, where only like I think two years ago, women were allowed to actually keep their land. In terms of when you look at the Ingonyama trust law that didn't allow women to have their rights with the land, you know, so those things that even after so many years in South Africa with the constitution we have, we still had those laws that don't allow women to be able to own anything. So we need to teach our children to think beyond especially, I mean, our girls, to think beyond, you know, marriage and not to see marriage as an achievement, but having education and having something of your own that will give you that sense of pride that when you wake up and you want to buy a lipstick, you don't have to go and beg somebody to give you money to buy a lipstick because you want to look pretty, you know? So it's little things that sometimes we may take for granted. But for girls, for a lot of girls in poor, disadvantaged communities, that sense of achievement, of having something of their own is really important. And it really sometimes is really what standing between having a decent life, just being able to survive and, you know, having to live in some shelter or in a shack somewhere because you really have no way of making an income and also being taken advantage of. You know, as women, we are a very I'd like to say like, you know, that species an endangered species. So if you don't have a lot of protection around yourself, there's vultures out there just waiting to take advantage of you. And and that is why, for me, it is so important that we give our girls their confidence. We give them the skills and the tools that they need to be able to innovate themselves out of poverty.
Ndidi Nwuneli: I love that. I love it. Really empowering women to have their own economic independence. That's so powerful. And you've been celebrated on a global stage, the West, through the Schwab Foundation, but on many, many platforms showing a different face of Africa. And actually teaching the rest of the world how they can learn from Africa. What does it mean to you knowing that the whole world gets to see the incredible work that you're doing coming out of our continent?
Lindiwe Matlali: I think it's crazy Ndidi. I mean, as I said, I honestly can't take credit for it because a lot of these I was everytime you get it, like, oh, my God, I don't know how I got it. I don't think I deserve it because I'm just doing what I feel like God has placed me to do. But I also acknowledge the importance of those platforms because because of those platforms and those opportunities that I've been, you know, blessed that God has opened those doors for me, it gives me more ability to be in the right tables and to be able to influence and to talk about these issues that sometimes that are uncomfortable for most people. You know, people don't want to see and while they're having their caviar, they don't want to be reminded about that, there are other people who are poor, you know, and it's up to us when we get that platform and that opportunity to advocate for those people who don't have a voice, for the people who may not even have their opportunity to sit at the table where they could bring these issues with the passion that it is, not just as in passing or, you know, as a sidebar. Oh, there's also these other people. And those are those I want to continue to represent and inspire to know that you are not your circumstances. If you work hard, you know, God will bless you. You know, he talks about how he blesses the works of your hands. So you need to give him something to work with. And then I always tell these kids, I'm like, I gave him something to work with, and then you could multiply it if you multiply zero by zero zero. So you need to do something. And for that to be multiplied.
Richard Okello: Lindiwe you know the as you just talked about that now in terms of multiplication you know getting people from 0 to 1 where you've obviously evolved your organization from just coding to what you describe to others as sort of not just innovation, but market creation. Right? And this notion of entrepreneurship, innovation, market creation is so important to not just South Africa or Africa, but just to communities around the world, many of whom would be listening in to this podcast because it's so core to the upliftment of just ordinary people. Right. So but some may say to you, well, not everyone's born to be an entrepreneur or has that mindset. Talk to us a little bit, maybe share the short personal story of how you've helped get that message across to people who did not grow up as entrepreneurs, or around entrepreneurs, but who have become entrepreneurs.
Lindiwe Matlali: Yeah, I mean, it goes back to, I think, the same thing that people will say, not everybody's a born leader. Right? Like as if you know some people. Well, not everybody is a leader. I mean, either you are born a leader or you don't have leadership skills. And the same way that leadership skills can be taught, you can go to a business school and learn to become a manager. Entrepreneurship can be taught, too. I believe that because it's really around teaching people the right way of thinking and teaching them about how to solve problems entrepreneurship is nothing but a problem solver. So if you wake up every morning and your house is cold and you realize that I have to go and get wood and, you know, make fire. You are a problem solver. Then you can also be an entrepreneur because there could be people who don't know how to make the fire. So you can then use your skills to make that fire and then sell it. And I think that is really what we need to teach and also get many people to understand that entrepreneurship, just like leadership can be taught. And there's many people I mean, I never saw myself as an entrepreneur, but opportunities and sometimes life circumstances got me to the point where I had to do something on my own. I was still in some like my first business when I started it. I didn't start my business because I woke up and I was like, Okay, you know what? I'm an entrepreneur so I am going to start a business, I started it because, you know, I was pregnant with my first child and it was a very difficult pregnancy and I could not work. I was told I had to go and stay at home. I was about four months pregnant at the time. And in South Africa, you know, you could like how many months you can take as a maternity leave. And I knew that after I had to leave my job and at that time I had to, because I'm also very independent. I had to make sure that I could make money. So did making designs. And then the next thing I was designing for the late Minister of Social Development, Edna Molewa, the next thing I was going to Oprah magazine is this designer, which it was never really what I was doing, but it was really something that came up as a way to make money during that time, and not because I was looking to become an entrepreneur. And after that I was like, Oh, I can do this. You know, I have this gift, so maybe I need to stay on and continue with it. And that's what happened. And I think that's really what we need to do. Teach people, expose them and show them that entrepreneurship is really not about having a gift, this amazing gift to make money. It's really being a problem solver. And anybody can solve a problem if they are taught how. So we need to teach it. Now young people, a lot of Africans the right way, because if we don't, we will continue to become a market for solutions built elsewhere. We will continue to have somebody coming and solving our problem for us and then taking everything and leave us in poverty. So we need to change that. And the only way to do that is by, you know, teaching our young kids as early as possible before they you know, as you realize, I was saying, you know, as we go older, we become I was saying to my kids, I think I've become like my grandfather, my grandmother sometimes that when somebody comes with a new thing and or they come and see this amazing thing, Ah what's the catch definitely something this river. I'm sure some way it stops, you know what I mean? And that's what life teaches us. Teaches us that not everything is perfect, but with a child for them is they just on a blank? It's you know, you have this blank canvas where you can paint anything. And if you give them that skills and the tools as early as possible, then I think that's the only way we can transform Africa.
Richard Okello: That's awesome. Become a problem solver before we run out of time here. Which I am going to pivot a little bit here to the next segment, which is what we like to call our Lightning Round. And the idea here is that I'll ask you a question and you only get about 30 seconds to answer the question, just sort of short short segment per question. So let's start with the last point you made about becoming a problem solver. One of the problems entrepreneurs have is managing their time and managing stress. So let's focus the spotlight squarely on you. So you founded two organizations, at least you still run both of them. You sit on multiple boards. As I understand it, you're studying for PhD. You're your mother, right? We could keep going down that list. So how do you solve that? Do you ever find time to rest? And the question would be, what do you do to unwind, if at all?
Lindiwe Matlali: I actually have a simple thing. I like playing chess and my kids don't wanna play with me. And my husband doesn't want because it's too long. So I play chess on my computer. So that's what I do. So I'm on my phone, the app on my phone, and I just play chess. And that's how I know it.
Richard Okello: Nothing simpler than chess. It's just a complicated game. Nothing like more relaxing than chess.
Lindiwe Matlali: It's actually very relaxing. It's very relaxing because when I'm playing, it is like you're playing. This computer is like, I know if I win, no one is going to get hurt. It's just an app and it's fun.
Richard Okello: No, I hear you.
Lindiwe Matlali: I did say a great way of unwinding. And also, you know, it also keeps my mind sharp.
Richard Okello: You're also obviously in the PhD program at University of Cape Town. Just in one word, what's the most interesting thing you've studied recently? One word or couple words.
Lindiwe Matlali: I can't say one word, but there's one of my professors he taught me. I thought I knew how to meditate and meditation was, you know, as much as it was just we were talking about all this, you know, complicated subject about the research in information systems and all of that. But there's one thing that he taught about when he said, you know, meditation is really about acknowledging. You acknowledge the problems and everything that is happening that is there. But during that moment, you just say, I'm going to swim at the bottom and assume that nothing is there and just look at the world as it is and say, Why is it that I want to focus on? And at that moment when you meditate, it would be, you know, focusing on God. And it was a simple thing about, yes, all these things are there yes, you've got problems. Yes, you say go, yes, your child is sick or whatever. But if that moment is you're just going to be still, you gonna just pretend as if none of those things are there. Acknowledge that they are there, but, you know, not let them consume you. So that was I learned it was just a simple trick. And now I know how to meditate. And I don't try to say, oh my God, to meditate. I need to try to not think about it. I just think about it, acknowledge them. But that moment is I'm not I'm not focusing on them.
Richard Okello: Hmm. Ndidi talk a little bit about the gender gap? What one thing can Faith driven entrepreneurs people listening to this podcast, do you know what one thing can they do to reduce the gender gap, do you think?
Lindiwe Matlali: I actually I don't think it's very difficult to really choose because all of us, we've got women, you know, that we know even young girls. And we need to encourage them and also support them and uplift them either to get into a position of leadership. If it's a young girl, get them to aspire to be a leader and support them, you know, and that is really as simple as that is. We just have to make sure that we encourage the women in our lives and we don't have to think about, you know, closing the gender gap globally. Sometimes you just have to start with the women that you have impact on the women in your life and support them, build your wife. I've seen actually a lot of, you know, faith men or God fearing men. They are very, very oppressive at home in the way they see their women. And that's needs to change is that they also need to realize that they have to support the women and allow them to basically live their full potential. And that's the only way we can close that gender gap, because women we also raise the kids. So if my kids my daughters see me aspiring and trailblazing, they're going to see themselves that way because they're going to mirror their lives based on the way that I have lived. So if you are a man and you don't allow your woman to pursue their dream and you've got daughters. What's going to happen this cycle is going to continue because the girls are going to see the way the mothers are living and the way they are treated. And they're going to think that's how life is supposed to be. And I think it's just as simple let's treat the women in our lives better and allow them to live their dreams.
Richard Okello: I love that. Support our women.
Ndidi Nwuneli: Amen to that. Couldn't have said it better. Lindiwe You're speaking my language. Richard any more rapid fire questions?
Richard Okello: You know, I have one more Lindiwe and this one I'm really going to push you to try to see if you can summarize this in. I don't know, maybe it's five words or it's four words or one word. What makes you most excited about the future of Africa's youth?
Lindiwe Matlali: Hope I think it's that, yeah. If you want me to say one word, I also hope wherever you go, a lot of African youth are hopeful. We are not despondent. And I think as long as they don't lose that hope, Africa will continue to rise. Because we are. It's not like we stagnant, we are rising slower. But I think we will rise faster as long as we make sure that we keep you know, for some of us who've been able to succeed and do well, we always tell our children that there is hope because there is hope.
Richard Okello: We keep that hope alive. Amen.
Ndidi Nwuneli: Amen. Lindiwe, you've been so inspiring. Thank you so much. We like to close out each episode by hearing what God is teaching you right now. What have you found in God's Word that has stuck out to you recently that you can share with the listeners?
Lindiwe Matlali: I would say for me right now is complete surrendering. You know, that's really what I'm learning because I've always known I will sing, I surrender all. But this time there've been moments in my life when I just knew that I can strategise myself out of this. I can't do anything and I just have to completely trust God and just know that it's gonna work out. And I am at that moment in my life right now where I am just, I would say forced surrendering, where I just know I can't do anything except just to trust.
Ndidi Nwuneli: That's such a powerful way to end such an inspirational session with you, Lindiwe. We're praying for you that God will continue to prosper your path. He'll continue to strengthen you. He'll continue to fill you with wisdom and courage and the tenacity to take territory in his kingdom and to be the leader in the ICT sector. May God bless your family as well and keep you healthy and strong in Jesus mighty name. We have prayed. Amen.
